to re-body or not to re-body

[2Gunz]

Simple.

99% of the time the only reason to swap the tags is to make one car something that its not.

And thats the problem its not that car.

And yes you can come up with logical reasons for swapping Vins all afternoon.

But once again..... Its just not that car.

[nakita7]

Knowing that this is not a hobby anymore but a business, I would bet a years' salary that a very high, double-digit percentage of Mopars are rebodies. Most are recent, many are from years ago. As stated earlier, I personally seen a Hemi one 20 years ago. Some don't care, some say it's illegal. So is speeding. Some do, some don't, but, of course, I'll assume that those who don't/won't rebody, obviously never speed too, am I correct?  Point is...there will always be two views.

Now...I noticed this thread kind of turned to talking about the owners of the rebodied cars down the road. For what it's worth, if I found out that the car I bought was rebodied previously, I wouldn't care at all. NOT AT ALL. As long as it's registered in my name, and I payed my tax buying it, wouldn't bother me in the least. I would personally rather have that, than a car that has been back-halfed, different roof, new floorpans, frame fixed and all new repro sheet metal from front to back. That car is not Chrysler anymore, sorry. I'm not condoning anything 'illegal', just a personal preference if I ever came across that situation. 

[1969chargerrtse]

Re-bodying a car is just plain wrong. For those that think there is no difference between rebodying and replacing 70% sheet metal I will try to corrolate.

An original engine is still the original engine even if it has new pistons, a new crank, new connecting rods, etc., etc. The block has not changed.

An engine is not original even if you take all the original internals out of the original motor and transplant them in a different block.

A body is the same way. Replacing rusted sheet metal on the body it came from the factory is like putting new rods in your engine. Taking the VIN and radiator support putting them in another body is like taking the original internal parts of an engine and putting them in another block and saying it is the original engine.

As far as an emotional connection to the car. What do the numbers have to do with that? If the car is totalled and you get a donor and transplant everything, including the numbers, does not change the fact that the original is in a junkyard somewhere. And if you were that attached to the car in the first place, you would think that very thought every time you looked at your "clone".

[AirborneSilva]

I'm against doing the re-body thing and I have the perfect candidate for it but wont do it.  I don't ever plan to sell my Charger (or re-body it), but my son is not as into Mopars as I am (yeah I know I have failed as a father  ), but I still intend to leave him the car after I'm gone, he may or may not keep the car - that will be up to him.  My point is, the car WILL be sold one day.

[Old Moparz]

For anyone who says they "don't care" about which VIN tag is on their car, but still says it's okay to swap them, what's wrong with owning a car with a "legal" & state issued VIN tag? (My guess is that you're full of shit though.....LOL)

If you don't care what tag is there.....

or you aren't in the hobby for monetary gain.....

or you aren't looking to fake a rare car.....

or you aren't trying to impress people.....

Then why rebody?

I've posted here & elsewhere before, that if I owned a car that was legally titled & registered through DMV with a state issued VIN tag, I honestly wouldn't care at all. I'll also add that I probably wouldn't buy a car that was missing a VIN tag because of the headaches that go with it. The only time I'd consider buying one without a VIN tag, is if the seller was someone who was willing to sign papers to go with a bill of sale taking full, financial responsibility if the car cannot be tagged. Meaning that I'd be reimbursed.

[Mike DC]

 
If there's any possible reason to swap VIN tags that doesn't involve deception of other people in some way, I'd love to hear it. 

[Joshua]

How do you "rebody" a unibody car???

[andy74]

If there's any possible reason to swap VIN tags that doesn't involve deception of other people in some way, I'd love to hear it. 

old topic but still a very revelant one, clone cars or rebodies should have the original vin,not the car that they mimic,case closed

[Back N Black]

I'm not in to numbers and i will never do a re-body. But there are people pulling these disearable cars out of mud holes with nothing left only a firewall and a couple frame rails and taking a good solid car and wrapping it around what is left of the R/T car. So what is the difference of taking the dash and putting it in the donor car or taking the donor car and putting it around the dash of another car. Is it because the original dash is still mounted to the original firewall it not a re-body.Its all smoke and mirrors i tell ya! 

[Mike DC]

 
Yeah, but I think that's almost as bad as a rebody.  Those kinds of, "We took an original HemiCuda's door hinges and rebuilt the rest" restorations really aren't the same car as far as I'm concerned.


Some people see that as an argument in favor of condoning the rebodies. 

I just look at it as an argument against the extremely cut-up restorations. 



The bottom line is that the entire old-car hobby needed to broaden & sharpen its definitions and terms for "original" a long time ago.

[Goldfinger71]

Man,people are going back into the crates lately replying to old topics!

But this is a topic that should continuesly be addressed.

Swapping parts from one car to another fine.......Swapping VINS is against the law and im not going to the "pokey".
Besides what is the big deal about just swapping parts from one car to another and just leaving the VIN #"s alone? 
Most people outside of the Mopar community don't know how to decode a Mopar vin #. Why do a number of people "claim" to want to do this for their own pleasure BUT want to change the VIN#'s over as well? (Well,I know and so do you,some people who do this pull the wool over people's eyes just to make a dollar!)

And what happens when the car owners dies and the cars are left for someone else(that is if you have even written a will,no will could=even more problems.) If they dont know about Mopars or cars in general it could cause alot of headache for the new- care takes of the cars that don't know about the laws and break them like some previous owner(s) choose to do.

[69CoronetRT]

For anyone who says they "don't care" about which VIN tag is on their car, but still says it's okay to swap them, what's wrong with owning a car with a "legal" & state issued VIN tag? (My guess is that you're full of shit though.....LOL)

If you don't care what tag is there.....

or you aren't in the hobby for monetary gain.....

or you aren't looking to fake a rare car.....

or you aren't trying to impress people.....

Then why rebody?

Insecurity...
Fear of being made fun of for not having a 'real' muscle car....
Laziness....
Stupidity....
Greed....

Reading some of these pro-rebody posts brings to mind a quote..."Never underestimate a person's ability to rationalize or justify their own bad behavior."

[FLG]

hmm, maybe the DMV should think of something that will allow us to re-body cars.

Example,

Lets say its a rare car that is worth restoring, but the body is just horrible. Now instead of replacing EVERY panel in the car (essentially a "re-body"), we just use another cars body and transplant Vin's. Why cant the DMV allow for something like this under certain conditions,

1) The re-body is first approved by them
2) Pic's of it are well documented and stored WITH them
3) Its stated on the title that the car has been re-bodied
4) Vin of old car is destroyed or kept with DMV

Now this will allow people to legitimately re-body there cars and the next owner would be aware of the re-body. The people who want to re-body cars and pass them off as legit will do it regardless, but the people who would rather re-body then replace every panel would now be allowed to do so, while keeping the rest of the classic car community protected from it being passed off as original.

Just my 

[Old Moparz]

How do you "rebody" a unibody car???

1)   Wait until nobody is watching, then bring a well worn out, rotted beyond help, rare, nasty, bent, twisted, POS Hemi car that was upside down in a manure field with varmints living in it since 1975, with it's VIN tag into your garage & shut the door.

2)   If nobody is still around & watching, bring a nice, show condition, or almost show condition, slant six or 318 version of the same car into your garage & shut the door.

3)   Carefully drill out the special rosette rivets on the VIN tag from the slant six, or 318 car, remove, & cut it into 150 small pieces & drop in a local river from as many different bridges as possible so the pieces can never be found.

4)   Tap the rust off the Hemi car VIN tag, soak in vineager to clean, then store it safely in a safety deposit box in a bank 3 states away, & only with a safe deposit clerk that doesn't know anything about vintage cars to be 100% sure it will be safe.

5)   Dismantle the remaining pile of rust (the Hemi car) if necessary, & place fragments into a heavy duty, "Hefty" or "Glad" brand, trash bag, & discard. (Although recycling is strongly encouraged.)

6)   Purchase an unstamped replacement Hemi block, all the correct parts & accessories for it, new pair of special rosette rivets, an original blank broadcast sheet & fender tag with the options you prefer, & place all on or in the slant six/318 car.

7)   With dark sunglasses, a fake beard & moustache, go 3 states away to the bank with the safety deposit clerk that is clueless to vintage autos, get the rare Hemi VIN tag & return home.

   Place the rare Hemi VIN tag on the slant six/318 car with the garage door closed & locked.

9)   Wait 8 or 9 months minimum.

10) Bring the car to shows & Tell people about the rare Hemi car that you found & restored by yourself in your garage.

It's that easy. 

[Troy]

Sort of missing the point of a Vehicle Identification Number isn't it? The whole concept is to uniquely identify a car.

The people who claim it's "ok" are downplaying the fact that it is illegal. Comparing it to a speeding ticket is laughable since one is a misdemeanor and only carries a fine while the other is a felony. I may speed but I don't rob banks with a gun so that comparison is totally invalid.

hmm, maybe the DMV should think of something that will allow us to re-body cars.

Example,

Lets say its a rare car that is worth restoring, but the body is just horrible. Now instead of replacing EVERY panel in the car (essentially a "re-body"), we just use another cars body and transplant Vin's. Why cant the DMV allow for something like this under certain conditions,

1) The re-body is first approved by them
2) Pic's of it are well documented and stored WITH them
3) Its stated on the title that the car has been re-bodied
4) Vin of old car is destroyed or kept with DMV

Now this will allow people to legitimately re-body there cars and the next owner would be aware of the re-body. The people who want to re-body cars and pass them off as legit will do it regardless, but the people who would rather re-body then replace every panel would now be allowed to do so, while keeping the rest of the classic car community protected from it being passed off as original.

Just my 

For what it's worth, you can legally swap a VIN in most states provided you have an officer present as a witness and you have all the right paper work. You can also rebuild a "salvage" vehicle with the proper documentation (usually a description and identifying number from any parts you put on the car). The reason people don't do this is because now it is a documented (traceable) rebody and isn't worth as much. It all goes back to the money. Deliberately deceiving another is fraud.

Troy

[FLG]

Understood troy, heck guess i misunderstood or rather never took the time to read some of the laws and thought it was illegal all together to swap vin's anywhere. But there are people who just want to keep that rare cars vin alive for whatever reason, nostalgic maybe? Who knows...

[Joshua]

I'm gonna "rebody" the 4 door Dart in the backyard to a '70 'Cuda....whaddya guys think???

[71green go]

Hmmm.........I also rebuild pick up trucks.......What do you all call using a rustfree cab on a resto?.........and buying a new aftermarket box and fenders.......then clipping the frame with a camaro clip?..........this is a total rebody.......cabs at swap meets are gutted and rarely do they come with a title.....what is the real heart of the vehicle?...the motor?...no we change them all the time....frame....nope we also change them all the time.......body?.....maybe but you can replace all of that anyways.........what would you do if you had a dash fire and the dash warped?....replace it and change the vin?........or scrap the vin..........I have seen sooo many cars/trucks  that were all but total rebodies...it is quite a gray area..........
Would I?........in the case of trucks I guess I already have.........Haven't done the same on a car, but in this case it would be tempting.

[AirborneSilva]

Hmmm.........I also rebuild pick up trucks.......What do you all call using a rustfree cab on a resto?.........and buying a new aftermarket box and fenders.......then clipping the frame with a camaro clip?..........this is a total rebody.......cabs at swap meets are gutted and rarely do they come with a title.....what is the real heart of the vehicle?...the motor?...no we change them all the time....frame....nope we also change them all the time.......body?.....maybe but you can replace all of that anyways.........what would you do if you had a dash fire and the dash warped?....replace it and change the vin?........or scrap the vin..........I have seen sooo many cars/trucks  that were all but total rebodies...it is quite a gray area..........
Would I?........in the case of trucks I guess I already have.........Haven't done the same on a car, but in this case it would be tempting.

I'd call that a custom Rod, or maybe more correct a custom hot rod pickup truck.

[71green go]

Not all are customs they are built back sometimes to stock.......and they reuse the original VIN's...

[AirborneSilva]

Do the vin's on the frame and cab match?  If not then I'd say it was not original and should be a salvage - just my opinion

[BROCK]

Do the vin's on the frame and cab match?  If not then I'd say it was not original and should be a salvage - just my opinion

I'm not saying there isn't a vin on the frame or cab of my 64 Ford F100.  I'm saying the only vin I'm aware of is on the driver's door. 
Fortunately I only need floors for the cab & bed  - hardly the places to expect a vin anyway.  The vehicle is not rare either.  No-one
will care beyond clear title & sale price once it goes up for sale.  This is because it is just a truck.

When you choose to buy a rare car.  Education & scrutiny are key.  When Sbarro, an artist, built a 550K, Gullwing & Bugatti from raw
materials; they were very high dollar representations & still hold their value.  When Shelby found "leftover vins", he renumbered old
cars.  When you use parts to restore a 6pack or HEMI:  Document the 6pack or HEMI on your frame plate throughout it's 98%
parts replacement & you're OK   You're a Saint for saving it   But, put those 6pack or HEMI numbers on an
arbitrary shell & you're a forger!!!!!!!!!!  Right or wrong; agreed or disagreed:  Thats the world we live in.  That IS the way it IS. 

I don't mean this statement against anyone here:  Sum up the needs of the project, factor in your abilities & disposable income; then
either go for it in a legal manor (documenting it along the way) or pass it on to someone that is capable of saving it in a legal manor. 

Any other approach or justification is plain wrong in the eyes of the law.  In some completely legal cases we still cringe & wonder how
it could be legal. 

To me documentation & disclosure are key to the proper selling of any vehicle   How much a buyer is willing to pay should
be based on that or he runs the risk of feeling cheated or actually being cheated.  To that end:  I'm gonna make certain my buyers
know what is true

[Zinc]

For anyone who says they "don't care" about which VIN tag is on their car, but still says it's okay to swap them, what's wrong with owning a car with a "legal" & state issued VIN tag? (My guess is that you're full of shit though.....LOL)

If you don't care what tag is there.....

or you aren't in the hobby for monetary gain.....

or you aren't looking to fake a rare car.....

or you aren't trying to impress people.....

Then why rebody?

I rebodied one of my chargers, it was a 318 car, it was registered, titled in my name, when the time came to restore/ clone it into an R/T, I was faced with, replacing a trunk floor, rear qtrs, valnce, tailpanel,one rear frame rail, and front floors, and a dutchman panel, I was looking at $3000 in parts, so for $3800 I got a beatiful, absolutly  NICE TEXAS RUST FREE body!, not a spec of rust! I swapped over my interior, my hood, my trunk, doors, removed the AC firewall, put my non AC firewall in it's place, and assorted stainless trim, painted the car, added a 440, 4 spd, dana and R/T trim, put my 318 numbers on what was a 69 383 SE, with no paperwork, title, etc, just a bill of sale from a junkyard, the DMV here dosen't like that kinda stuff!  saved a lot of work from welding up a rust bucket! put that time into having a finished car, plus no hassles trying to obtain a title for a car bought out of a Texas junkyard!, put my plates on it , and drove it!REBODIED!, LOVE IT! what was wrong with that!, I put a safer/ constructed car BACK on the road!, I salvaged out the rustbucket, sold off parts to others!,made money parting it out, sold the remaing rust for scrap! who was "harmed" by this!, maybe the state lost some revenue from addition taxes that I didn't pay, or fees for the registry, is anybody goona shed a tear for them!, I don't think so!

[Mike DC]

 
What if you sell it (or you eventually die and someone else sells it) to someone who pays a lot of extra money for its matching-numbers status?

And then the truth gets revealed later . . .


That buyer got ripped off. 

 

[Old Moparz]

 
What if you sell it (or you eventually die and someone else sells it) to someone who pays a lot of extra money for its matching-numbers status?

And then the truth gets revealed later . . .


That buyer got ripped off. 

 

Hey Mike, you don't actually think that anyone who rationalizes that a rebody is "okay" to do, will worry about selling or even what happens after they drop dead, do you?