to re-body or not to re-body

[Mopar440+6]

You start swapping VINs, rad supports, etc and now you have the nice name of criminal. That's illegal and is no different than counterfeiting. Well in fact that's what you're doing.

6pak, If what you say is true then wouldn't using any factory sheetmetal on another car fall under the rebody category?

For example: I have (well had, one has since been destroyed along with VIN tag) two base model 318 parts cars. One "salvageable" and another that is severely wrecked. (For argument's sake nothing has been destroyed yet except for the damage done by rust and the wreck). The "salvageable" one has no title and needs a rad support, quarters, and firewall. The wrecked one has a title, good rad support and firewall. If I start putting parts together to make one good car which VIN should it be registered under? Would it be wrong to register it under the VIN of the wrecked one since it already has so many parts from the wrecked one? How would that be any different from taking the parts off of the "salvageable" car to replace the damaged parts on the wrecked one?

Another example: Many of you have seen my current project car. If you have, you know that it needs A LOT of sheetmetal; roof, full floorpans, trunk pans, full quarters, taillight panel, and rear valance. I bought a rust free rear clip, with all of these parts intact, with the full intention to swap most if not all of these parts onto my car. Is what Im doing a "rebody"?

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is "What is the 'definition' of a rebody? How much metal must be replaced before a car is considered a rebody?" I guess my idea of a rebody is taking one entire body and swapping another VIN onto it. This issue has honestly been bugging me for a while and I would like to hear some more opinions on this topic. Great disscussion guys! Keep it coming!

[Troy]

I don't know what is considered as the exact definition of a rebody but the most obvious example would be finding a solid car and swapping the VIN and body stampings. There is no replacing this and that - just a straight numbers swap which is ILLEGAL in every state. This is purely to increase the value of the car - nothing else. Adding quarters, frame rails, floors, and other welded on parts is a necessity at times due to accidents or rust but the sole intention is not to swap numbers to defraud anyone. I think it's mostly "intent" that causes the problem. Sure, some cars end up with a large amount of replacement metal and obviously the factory metal from a donor car is many times better than the reproduction stuff so it's more sought after. The idea here is that the car was repaired while saving as much of the original car from when it rolled down the assembly line. This is till considered maintenance/repair to the government. Even though the cars are practically identical underneath, swapping numbers to a clean (less desirable car) is the lazy man's way of justifying their own greed. If they truly wanted to save a piece of history they'd do it to a car that was only worth $10k instead of one worth $100k+.

Did I mention it is illegal?

Troy

[hemihead]

I wonder if anyone on this board would admit that they performed a rebody on thier car or even bought a rebody car? Probably not. 

[Crazy Larry]

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is "What is the 'definition' of a rebody? How much metal must be replaced before a car is considered a rebody?" I guess my idea of a rebody is taking one entire body and swapping another VIN onto it. This issue has honestly been bugging me for a while and I would like to hear some more opinions on this topic. Great disscussion guys! Keep it coming!

Bottom Line....in my humble opinion.....

Shell + Dash Board VIN. Once those two are separated, then it becomes a rebody.

[twilt]

I wonder if anyone on this board would admit that they performed a rebody on thier car or even bought a rebody car? Probably not. 

I  restamped a Hemi car and changed out the dash to a G code VIN to save on insurance. 

[Mike DC]

          
Is there any middle-ground?

----------------------------------------------------------------

What about this:

1.  Buy both cars.  
2.  Swap the R/T's parts onto the clean 1970 body and build yourself a nice fun clone of the R/T.  (Don't swap any VINs.)
3.  Hold onto the rusty 1970 body shell for a little while and chew on this.  Maybe set your self a limit of 6 months or a year at most after the clone is done.  

Once the body of the R/T is torn down to a bare shell and the rest of the parts are running your nice clone, you may be in a better position to evaluate the feasibility of fixing the R/T shell.  You'll have a fully disassebled R/T shell to work with, and the R/T's parts will already be nicely "stored" for your convenience.  And you'll already have a clone of the final product to inspire you (sure beats waiting 4 years for your R/T to be finished, doesn't it?).


At this point, if you're still enthusiastic about having a numbers-matching car . . .
and the shell of the R/T looks anywhere near fixable at all, like maybe if it has some solid framerails under it . . .

Then you can weld up the R/T shell for real and swap everything back.  You'll have a REAL rare-ass R/T.  (And it's not like the clean leftover 1970 Charger shell won't have any value afterwards either.  Clean 2nd-gen Charger shells aren't ever go out of demand again, that's for sure.)

.

[Mopar440+6]

I wonder if anyone on this board would admit that they performed a rebody on thier car or even bought a rebody car? Probably not. 

Honestly, I think I may have unknowingly bought a rebody. I am still not 100% sure that the VIN in my car matches the fender tag and body. Is there any way to check this on a 68 without having the buildsheet?

[The Ghoul]

swapping numbers to a clean (less desirable car) is the lazy man's way of justifying their own greed. If they truly wanted to save a piece of history they'd do it to a car that was only worth $10k instead of one worth $100k+.

nagatory good buddy.
Alot of people in this situation, if they intended on not selling it (like my self) would want to see the vin live on even tho a replaceable part of the equation is beond repair. The value issue is just a pluss... its not as cut and dry as it sounds.
for those of you that havent herd my 98 firebird sob story.
the one car I owned and absolutly loved was a 98 firebird formula, LS1 6 speed manual, non t-top blue gree chamelion..
the car was 1 of 32 built with those options. my friend spun it on the freeway when driving me home drunk and into the concreet divider. The shell was totaly distroied, every pannel had a wrinkle in it and the fraim rails were beond all repair.
If I was able to afford keeping the shell after the insurance declaired it a wreck I would have in a heart beat found a solid shell, bumper, hood and door donner car, got it re-painted and swapped every thing over from the wrecked one (vins included). No questions.
Not all re-bodys are driven from lazy people seeking greed. there is alot of grey in the equation.
to some the title, vin options, and orrigional drive train are alot more important than what sheet metal was used to restore it.
after all whats the point of replacing all the sheet metal out except the 20% that isnt rotted beond repair just to say its not a re-body, when it would be alot cleaner finished product to swap out some tags.
Its not like the situation is shady like not owning the title to one of the shells.
or its not like swapping the vins from 2 restorable shells one thats cherry and common and one thats rough thats not common to save on restoration cost.


I just cant see whats so wrong about 2 clean titiles 2 shells enter, one shell and alot of scrap metal leaves..

[The Ghoul]

I realy want to get my hands on the car, have the shell dipped just to see how much.... er... little metal makes it out of the process...
Im guessing the upper half of the door hinge supports, a bit of upper front frame rail, and the very center of the top of the roof.

[twilt]

swapping numbers to a clean (less desirable car) is the lazy man's way of justifying their own greed. If they truly wanted to save a piece of history they'd do it to a car that was only worth $10k instead of one worth $100k+.

nagatory good buddy.
Alot of people in this situation, if they intended on not selling it (like my self) would want to see the vin live on even tho a replaceable part of the equation is beond repair. The value issue is just a pluss... its not as cut and dry as it sounds.
for those of you that havent herd my 98 firebird sob story.
the one car I owned and absolutly loved was a 98 firebird formula, LS1 6 speed manual, non t-top blue gree chamelion..
the car was 1 of 32 built with those options. my friend spun it on the freeway when driving me home drunk and into the concreet divider. The shell was totaly distroied, every pannel had a wrinkle in it and the fraim rails were beond all repair.
If I was able to afford keeping the shell after the insurance declaired it a wreck I would have in a heart beat found a solid shell, bumper, hood and door donner car, got it re-painted and swapped every thing over from the wrecked one (vins included). No questions.
Not all re-bodys are driven from lazy people seeking greed. there is alot of grey in the equation.
to some the title, vin options, and orrigional drive train are alot more important than what sheet metal was used to restore it.
after all whats the point of replacing all the sheet metal out except the 20% that isnt rotted beond repair just to say its not a re-body, when it would be alot cleaner finished product to swap out some tags.
Its not like the situation is shady like not owning the title to one of the shells.
or its not like swapping the vins from 2 restorable shells one thats cherry and common and one thats rough thats not common to save on restoration cost.


I just cant see whats so wrong about 2 clean titiles 2 shells enter, one shell and alot of scrap metal leaves..

Sorry, but your story about the 98 Firebird only further proves the whole point against rebodies. 1 of 100,000 , 1 of 32, 1 of 1 , who really cares?  If a car cant be fixed, it shouldn`t live on based on  its VIN plate.

[The Ghoul]

swapping numbers to a clean (less desirable car) is the lazy man's way of justifying their own greed. If they truly wanted to save a piece of history they'd do it to a car that was only worth $10k instead of one worth $100k+.

nagatory good buddy.
Alot of people in this situation, if they intended on not selling it (like my self) would want to see the vin live on even tho a replaceable part of the equation is beond repair. The value issue is just a pluss... its not as cut and dry as it sounds.
for those of you that havent herd my 98 firebird sob story.
the one car I owned and absolutly loved was a 98 firebird formula, LS1 6 speed manual, non t-top blue gree chamelion..
the car was 1 of 32 built with those options. my friend spun it on the freeway when driving me home drunk and into the concreet divider. The shell was totaly distroied, every pannel had a wrinkle in it and the fraim rails were beond all repair.
If I was able to afford keeping the shell after the insurance declaired it a wreck I would have in a heart beat found a solid shell, bumper, hood and door donner car, got it re-painted and swapped every thing over from the wrecked one (vins included). No questions.
Not all re-bodys are driven from lazy people seeking greed. there is alot of grey in the equation.
to some the title, vin options, and orrigional drive train are alot more important than what sheet metal was used to restore it.
after all whats the point of replacing all the sheet metal out except the 20% that isnt rotted beond repair just to say its not a re-body, when it would be alot cleaner finished product to swap out some tags.
Its not like the situation is shady like not owning the title to one of the shells.
or its not like swapping the vins from 2 restorable shells one thats cherry and common and one thats rough thats not common to save on restoration cost.


I just cant see whats so wrong about 2 clean titiles 2 shells enter, one shell and alot of scrap metal leaves..

Sorry, but your story about the 98 Firebird only further proves the whole point against rebodies. 1 of 100,000 , 1 of 32, 1 of 1 , who really cares?  If a car cant be fixed, it shouldn`t live on based on  its VIN plate.

the point of that story was there was an emotional attachement to the car, not just the shell of the car...
thats the whole point, the car isnt just a shell. the car can be fixed the shell could not.
only the dmv counts a vin as a car.

[KMPX2]

Just walk down to the local jail & ask them if they have a room ready. It will come back to bite you on the ass one day.

[Dan T]

Sell me the '70 R/T and I'll restore it.
I'd kill to restore an original R/T, even if it took me 10 or so yrs. I'm sure it could be done!!

[twilt]

the point of that story was there was an emotional attachement to the car, not just the shell of the car...
thats the whole point, the car isnt just a shell. the car can be fixed the shell could not.
only the dmv counts a vin as a car.

With that line of anti-logic, it should be perfectly acceptable (if the individual owns both cars) to take the VIN tag out of a rare car and...................install it in a solid 318 car, restamp the rest of the body numbers, replicate a  fender tag, restamp incorrect engine and trans, and represent the finished product as original.    Emotional attachment means nothing. Its a simple issue of right and wrong. Rebodying a car is wrong. Its ALL about the money/ greed/ perception of having a rare/valuable car. All the other stuff is just lame justification. It is a felony in all 50 states and it should be. Hemi cars get rebodied, 318 cars do not. Why? Money, Money, Money.

[Mopar440+6]

Its a simple issue of right and wrong. Rebodying a car is wrong. Its ALL about the money/ greed/ perception of having a rare/valuable car. All the other stuff is just lame justification. It is a felony in all 50 states and it should be. Hemi cars get rebodied, 318 cars do not. Why? Money, Money, Money.

So Twilt, you're saying that if I swap the VIN's from one 318 car to another 318 car it's not a rebody? What if neither the VIN, the body, the engine or the trans match.?

[terrible one]

I like Mike DC's idea. I think that would be the best thing to do in your situation.

[Mopar440+6]

TO, Ghoul said that there is no chance of him getting the R/T car. This is all theoretical and for the purpose of discussion...

[RT DAVE]

An admitted rebodied 1971 hemicuda sold at BJ this year for $500K.  The rebody was alleged to have occured back in the mid seventies as a result of a fire to the original car.  I don't how that makes it any better than having done that to a car now.   

[KMPX2]

The law states that you can not even remove a VIN tag to restore the dash. Much less put it on a different car.

[twilt]

Its a simple issue of right and wrong. Rebodying a car is wrong. Its ALL about the money/ greed/ perception of having a rare/valuable car. All the other stuff is just lame justification. It is a felony in all 50 states and it should be. Hemi cars get rebodied, 318 cars do not. Why? Money, Money, Money.

So Twilt, you're saying that if I swap the VIN's from one 318 car to another 318 car it's not a rebody? What if neither the VIN, the body, the engine or the trans match.?

No, thats not what i am saying at all. swapping vins on two 318 cars would be considered a rebody, but it doesnt happen because there is no financial motivation. So what if the numbers dont match. that in itself doesnt prove anything. If all  the body numbers were the same, but didnt match the VIN, that would be an obvious red flag that a poorly executed rebody may have occured. a better one (if there is such thing) would restamp the body numbers.  the engine/ trans numbers have nothing to do with a rebody.

[Paul G]

What was the original intent of the re-body laws? I can remember way back, good condition cars would be stolen and vins from worn out or wrecked cars would be put on them and resold. Illegal in the simplest terms. Rebuilding or restoring was not even a thought back then.

Step ahead to today. We are rebuilding and restoring rusty hulks that were never even considered 30 years ago.

My opinion is if a car is rusted, wrecked or needs a lot of sheet metal and replacement parts to become whole again it is no longer the original car. If you cut off and replace everything around the identification tags and call it restored, or remove the tags and place them on sheet metal in better condition neither one is the original car any longer. In the eyes of the law removing the vin is wrong. I see no difference in either method, they both should be wrong since neither contains the original parts that made the car what it was.

Maybe it's time to rewrite the laws.

[The Ghoul]

Sell me the '70 R/T and I'll restore it.
I'd kill to restore an original R/T, even if it took me 10 or so yrs. I'm sure it could be done!!

I dont have the $$ to buy the guy out on the car...
but if there is a big roller around here I could get his contact info for the finders fee of a stick  any displacment 71 barracuda; running and restorable. That is of corse if the sail goes down..
Oh btw Im not that much of a stickler on the numbers matching aspect of the cuda, all I ask is clean registerable vin on the dash that matches the one on the title. 

[Mike DC]

               
The core problem is that we're debating a rule/law that was written for a different time. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Re-bodying" used to be about taking a 318 Barracuda shell, putting a tired 1976 station wagon's 440 into it, and then putting a stolen 'Cuda VIN tag on the dash to pass it off as a real 440 'Cuda.

But now there are a growing number of "re-creations" where people faithfully copy totalled cars, and they often restore them to even higher quality standards than the factory ever did.  We're still applying the term "re-body" to these cars but it's not really fair. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that collectively, the old-car hobby is facing a turning point on these issues.  We've got a set of rules written back when 'Cudas were in local junkyards and bodyshop repair work was done with acetylene torches & quarts of bondo.  But the situation has changed.

.

[rich4406bbl]

I don't thinkl that this subject will ever end. How many times do people have to be told that it is illegal in every state to move VIN's from one vehicle to another. It may be tough to accept but the legal way is to restore the car. Yes, it may be astronomical cost wise but it wil be legal. Open question to all..... if you paid 150K for a Hemi Superbird you'd say it was a steal but if you later found out it had been "re-bodied" from a 318 Belvedere would you feel "taken"??

[Mopar440+6]

swapping vins on two 318 cars would be considered a rebody, but it doesnt happen because there is no financial motivation. So what if the numbers dont match. that in itself doesnt prove anything. If all  the body numbers were the same, but didnt match the VIN, that would be an obvious red flag that a poorly executed rebody may have occured. a better one (if there is such thing) would restamp the body numbers.  the engine/ trans numbers have nothing to do with a rebody.

But back to the example of my two parts cars. Both 318 cars and I legally own both. I have a title for one that is unrestorable and one that doesn't have a title but is restorable. What would be wrong with putting the two together and registering it under the VIN of the one that has a title? Exactly how much metal from the unrestorable one would I have to use on the restorable one before you wouldn't consider it a rebody?

(Twilt, just so you know Im not attacking you. Im just playing "devil's advocate" for the sake of discussion. )