How many people are in the market for reproduction grilles?

[Ghoste]

I thought the repro consoles were the same plastic as the originals?

[MaximRecoil]

Hmmm, maybe since you make a good argument for cheaper parts, maybe YOU can repro 68-69 grilles for the good folks here?
Oh and btw, they MUST be under $900.00, complete with headlight doors, for a better than new repro made from the latest plastics, be prepainted...

That's a non sequitur; i.e., it doesn't logically follow from anything I typed that I "can repro 68-69 grilles for the good folks here".

Supply and demand is just a muthafucka sometimes.  There's no law or property of nature that forces the price differences to stay "within reason" just because two items appear similar. 


Tool up a Blazer fender and you can sell them for $70 all day long. 

Tool up a second Blazer fender that is purposely made 1" longer than the stock one, and fits no vehicle on earth . . . see how long it takes you to recoup that tooling cost. 

Both fenders look almost identical, don't they?

Do you think e.g. 1980s S10 fenders are selling like hotcakes? Very few people bother to restore such a vehicle, as it is not a "classic". Most of them that are still on the road are considered "beaters" by their owners, who are more likely to patch up a damaged fender (or leave it as-is) than buy a new one.

On the other hand, the 2nd generation Dodge Charger is one of the most sought after cars out there. This is what you get for auto-complete suggestions when you type 1969 into Google:



This forum alone has almost 14,000 members, with most of the interest centered around the 2nd generation cars.

And I already gave the example of the Sanyo flyback as an extremely niche item that someone had a small run of manufactured in China cheaply. 

[JB400]

You don't get the Mini truckin  magazine, do you?

http://www.minitruckinweb.com/

I also know quite a few guys racing/ building custom S 10 pickups.  It's not a small niche market.

[Cooter]

I thought the repro consoles were the same plastic as the originals?

They may have come out with plastic ones, but in the beginning, I believe they were all fiberglass. As stated before, My cousin ordered a brand new plastic repop of his 1973 Camaro console. I'm sure it was a Chinese knock off, but I figured, anything was better than what he had. Got it here, and I can tell you it isn't the same plastic as the original. The repop plastic feels like well, kinda like one of those Dash pad covers.

Original was much thicker plastic. But, What the hell? He's got to use it now. None of the original console doors fit, hinges, etc. EVERYTHING MUST be bought repop in order to fit one size down from original.

[Cooter]

Hmmm, maybe since you make a good argument for cheaper parts, maybe YOU can repro 68-69 grilles for the good folks here?
Oh and btw, they MUST be under $900.00, complete with headlight doors, for a better than new repro made from the latest plastics, be prepainted...

That's a non sequitur; i.e., it doesn't logically follow from anything I typed that I "can repro 68-69 grilles for the good folks here".

I just figured since you know all about overseas (China) and repop parts, you might be able to actually do it instead of just telling us how cheaply they can be made. I have tried to repop Fuel Injection Emblems for the Forward Look cars. A little emblem at the CNC machine[15" long- Standard Block letters], and by the time the CAD program was scanned, chroming/anodizing was done, and I had the first run in my hands, I was looking at $500.00 Per Emblem (There are two/car). When I mentioned that the emblems would be around $350.00 Each fully chromed and gold anodized, people sh*t a brick and I kept seeing "I'll wait till the market calms down and prices come down"...Well, If it cost me $275.00/Emblem[Run of 100], there's no way I'm selling them for less than what it cost me to get 'em done. Sorry, no ties to China for me, I had to get it done in the Good old USA.

The other fiasco I went through was the Exhaust manifold deal. Ever try and repop a manifold???
Yeah, lemme tell ya'. Foundry's SUCK monkey balls. All of them want $10K up front to make all the "core boxes"[Which will get destroyed in the process], and they have to do the scanning and CNCing 3% larger due to shrinkage...Got any idea after $10K how many manifolds we have to show for it???


HINT: You can count 'em on one hand.

Big company or not, nobody is gonna just "Eat" the start up costs for the "good of the hobby" no matter how badly we would like them to. PS: I can get plenty GM stuff cheap.

[MaximRecoil]

I just figured since you know all about overseas (China) and repop parts, you might be able to actually do it instead of just telling us how cheaply they can be made.

You figured wrong, which isn't surprising, given that there was no logical reason for you to figure any such thing in the first place. I know that small runs of parts can be manufactured cheaply in China because I've seen it done by various people in various hobbies.

I have tried to repop Fuel Injection Emblems for the Forward Look cars. A little emblem at the CNC machine[15" long- Standard Block letters], and by the time the CAD program was scanned, chroming/anodizing was done, and I had the first run in my hands, I was looking at $500.00 Per Emblem (There are two/car). When I mentioned that the emblems would be around $350.00 Each fully chromed and gold anodized, people sh*t a brick and I kept seeing "I'll wait till the market calms down and prices come down"...Well, If it cost me $275.00/Emblem[Run of 100], there's no way I'm selling them for less than what it cost me to get 'em done. Sorry, no ties to China for me, I had to get it done in the Good old USA.

I bolded the part that makes a huge difference. Another thing that makes a difference is whether or not you have the design already layed out in a format that they can use as-is. For example, if you want something milled, you should already have the .DWG file to send them. Even among various manufacturers in the U.S. there can be big differences in price quotes. For example, I had an aluminum faceplate for a car radio made on a CNC waterjet, and I ended up paying $40 for a run of one, and they even painted it with military paint (they are a military contractor). It came out perfect in all of its dimensions. I got several quotes before deciding on who to go with, which were as high as $120, and they didn't even have the option of painting it.

[MaximRecoil]

You don't get the Mini truckin  magazine, do you?

http://www.minitruckinweb.com/

I also know quite a few guys racing/ building custom S 10 pickups.  It's not a small niche market.

I know zero people racing/ building custom S 10 pickups, which cancels out the quite a few guys you know. In any event, racing is a relatively niche market to start with. Simply compare how many general autoparts stores there are (e.g. Carquest, NAPA, Autozone, etc.) to how many speed shops there are; and racing S-10s is only a small subset of that already niche market.

[rick@laysons]

So......................

With all this talk of cheap and easy repro parts production,  I'd be anxious to see what these new grills look like!!!

When can we expect the first production run to be available for all of us to critique? 

[MaximRecoil]

So......................

With all this talk of cheap and easy repro parts production,  I'd be anxious to see what these new grills look like!!!

It can be done relatively cheaply in China, but who said anything about easy? Translating the physical design of the grille to a usable computer design format is a lot of work, especially if you don't have a 3D scanner. Even with a 3D scanner, all of the dimensions should be cleaned up afterward to ensure that everything is geometrically correct (i.e., make sure that areas that are supposed to be straight are truly straight; make sure that areas that are supposed to have a curve of a specific radius have said curve of a specific radius, and so on), otherwise errors present in the grille that was scanned will be compounded when it is reproduced from that data.

When can we expect the first production run to be available for all of us to critique?  

As soon as someone comes along with the knowledge, funds, and gumption to get it done, I suppose.

[ws23rt]

So......................

With all this talk of cheap and easy repro parts production,  I'd be anxious to see what these new grills look like!!!

It can be done relatively cheaply in China, but who said anything about easy? Translating the physical design of the grille to a usable computer design format is a lot of work, especially if you don't have a 3D scanner. Even with a 3D scanner, all of the dimensions should be cleaned up afterward to ensure that everything is geometrically correct (i.e., make sure that areas that are supposed to be straight are truly straight; make sure that areas that are supposed to have a curve of a specific radius have said curve of a specific radius, and so on), otherwise errors present in the grille that was scanned will be compounded when it is reproduced from that data.

When can we expect the first production run to be available for all of us to critique?  

As soon as someone comes along with the knowledge, funds, and gumption to get it done, I suppose.

Earlier in this discussion when talking about making stamping dies for a fender you made reference to it as being childs play.  Just scan the part, give the scan to the milling machine and bingo stamping dies.
But here you list many things that need to be done in the case of making a grille. And you seem to admit that it would not be easy.
This is not an apples and oranges comparison. You left out lots that goes into making dies. I have visited plants that do this and don't recall seeing anything that was childs play.

[MaximRecoil]

Earlier in this discussion when talking about making stamping dies for a fender you made reference to it as being childs play.  Just scan the part, give the scan to the milling machine and bingo stamping dies.

Now, here's what I actually said:

"Making the stamping dies is child's play for a metal stamping factory" (does the bolding help?)

You know, given that that is part and parcel of what metal stamping factories do on a routine basis; they are all set up for it and have the staff with the knowledge of how to do it, and the experience.

By the way, a stamping die is not a grille, and a stamping die factory is not an average guy off the street wishing they could get a grille made.

But here you list many things that need to be done in the case of making a grille. And you seem to admit that it would not be easy.

Creating accurate computer files for a factory to use isn't easy in a general sense (meaning not just anyone off the street is going to be able to do it), though there are no doubt certain people that consider it easy, due to their knowledge and experience level. And there is nothing to "admit"; I never claimed it was easy in the first place.

This is not an apples and oranges comparison. You left out lots that goes into making dies. I have visited plants that do this and don't recall seeing anything that was childs play.

So you saw a lot of workers standing around, scratching their heads, trying to figure out how to proceed? I don't think so. On the other hand, if someone said to you, "Draw me up a .DWG file of all the parts in a '69 Charger grille", I'm pretty sure you would be scratching your head, trying to figure out how to proceed. That's the difference between child's play and not easy; it all has to do with the knowledge and resources level of the entity being given the task.

[Cooter]

So......................

With all this talk of cheap and easy repro parts production,  I'd be anxious to see what these new grills look like!!!

When can we expect the first production run to be available for all of us to critique? 

I was waiting for someone who's actually been into the repro market to speak up on this....Now that we all know how "easy" it can be to repro a "china" grille/fender, maybe it won't be a long wait?

[ws23rt]

Earlier in this discussion when talking about making stamping dies for a fender you made reference to it as being childs play.  Just scan the part, give the scan to the milling machine and bingo stamping dies.

Now, here's what I actually said:

"Making the stamping dies is child's play for a metal stamping factory" (does the bolding help?)

You know, given that that is part and parcel of what metal stamping factories do on a routine basis; they are all set up for it and have the staff with the knowledge of how to do it, and the experience.

By the way, a stamping die is not a grille, and a stamping die factory is not an average guy off the street wishing they could get a grille made.

But here you list many things that need to be done in the case of making a grille. And you seem to admit that it would not be easy.

Creating accurate computer files for a factory to use isn't easy in a general sense (meaning not just anyone off the street is going to be able to do it), though there are no doubt certain people that consider it easy, due to their knowledge and experience level. And there is nothing to "admit"; I never claimed it was easy in the first place.

This is not an apples and oranges comparison. You left out lots that goes into making dies. I have visited plants that do this and don't recall seeing anything that was childs play.

So you saw a lot of workers standing around, scratching their heads, trying to figure out how to proceed? I don't think so. On the other hand, if someone said to you, "Draw me up a .DWG file of all the parts in a '69 Charger grille", I'm pretty sure you would be scratching your head, trying to figure out how to proceed. That's the difference between child's play and not easy; it all has to do with the knowledge and resources level of the entity being given the task.

Fascinating
No matter the topic you are an educator.  Every idea or opinion has be refuted , dismissed, rejected, etc. (ok show me the exceptions)
I came in on this as an observer with curiosity. And my contributions (sarcasm aside) have been rejected as preposterous along with the rest.
What amuses me the most is that you willingly step into areas that make your assertions assumptions.
Has it occurred to you that there may be condescension happening?  (you may be able to teach me how to do that as well).
Consider that you have no idea what my background is or any other of these members for that matter.

I for example happen to know much more about the manufacturing issues discussed here that I have let on. I feel no need to convince you of what I know. It is however fascinating to watch you dodge the traps.

[ws23rt]

So......................

With all this talk of cheap and easy repro parts production,  I'd be anxious to see what these new grills look like!!!

When can we expect the first production run to be available for all of us to critique? 

I was waiting for someone who's actually been into the repro market to speak up on this....Now that we all know how "easy" it can be to repro a "china" grille/fender, maybe it won't be a long wait?

I think we will have to wait awhile longer----Hold on---He will be back. 

[Patronus]

Screw the grille, make those lower dash vinyl pieces already!

[MaximRecoil]

I was waiting for someone who's actually been into the repro market to speak up on this....Now that we all know how "easy" it can be to repro a "china" grille/fender, maybe it won't be a long wait?

"Easy"? Once again:

It can be done relatively cheaply in China, but who said anything about easy? Translating the physical design of the grille to a usable computer design format is a lot of work, especially if you don't have a 3D scanner. Even with a 3D scanner, all of the dimensions should be cleaned up afterward to ensure that everything is geometrically correct (i.e., make sure that areas that are supposed to be straight are truly straight; make sure that areas that are supposed to have a curve of a specific radius have said curve of a specific radius, and so on), otherwise errors present in the grille that was scanned will be compounded when it is reproduced from that data.

Fascinating
No matter the topic you are an educator.  Every idea or opinion has be refuted , dismissed, rejected, etc. (ok show me the exceptions)
I came in on this as an observer with curiosity. And my contributions (sarcasm aside) have been rejected as preposterous along with the rest.
What amuses me the most is that you willingly step into areas that make your assertions assumptions.
Has it occurred to you that there may be condescension happening?  (you may be able to teach me how to do that as well).
Consider that you have no idea what my background is or any other of these members for that matter.

I for example happen to know much more about the manufacturing issues discussed here that I have let on. I feel no need to convince you of what I know. It is however fascinating to watch you dodge the traps.

You've presented no arguments here, just a baseless and irrelevant editorial. Due to its irrelevance, it can legitimately be dismissed out of hand.

[ws23rt]

Back to the question of reproduction grills.
IMO it is no secret that there is a need for these grills.

It is the natural order of things that where there is a need someone will fill it.

If China could meet the demand you bet they would (for the price and quantity in demand). That they as yet have not speaks for it's self.
If the original tooling still exists and access to it were permitted they could be reproduced in the quantity needed and beat the overseas competition.
The next best thing is for one of you or I to make a nice piece mark it up for a fair profit and it is done.
There has been enough comments about price so far that it seems unlikely this will happen soon.

On another thread was discussion about an add on ebay for a used set of rear glass trim for daytona/C500 priced at 5K.
Time is passing at sixty seconds a min. These parts are getting older and harder to find. As are we.

[ws23rt]

I was waiting for someone who's actually been into the repro market to speak up on this....Now that we all know how "easy" it can be to repro a "china" grille/fender, maybe it won't be a long wait?

"Easy"? Once again:

It can be done relatively cheaply in China, but who said anything about easy? Translating the physical design of the grille to a usable computer design format is a lot of work, especially if you don't have a 3D scanner. Even with a 3D scanner, all of the dimensions should be cleaned up afterward to ensure that everything is geometrically correct (i.e., make sure that areas that are supposed to be straight are truly straight; make sure that areas that are supposed to have a curve of a specific radius have said curve of a specific radius, and so on), otherwise errors present in the grille that was scanned will be compounded when it is reproduced from that data.

Fascinating
No matter the topic you are an educator.  Every idea or opinion has be refuted , dismissed, rejected, etc. (ok show me the exceptions)
I came in on this as an observer with curiosity. And my contributions (sarcasm aside) have been rejected as preposterous along with the rest.
What amuses me the most is that you willingly step into areas that make your assertions assumptions.
Has it occurred to you that there may be condescension happening?  (you may be able to teach me how to do that as well).
Consider that you have no idea what my background is or any other of these members for that matter.

I for example happen to know much more about the manufacturing issues discussed here that I have let on. I feel no need to convince you of what I know. It is however fascinating to watch you dodge the traps.

You've presented no arguments here, just a baseless and irrelevant editorial. Due to its irrelevance, it can legitimately be dismissed out of hand.

Of course

[Fred]

On a side note.............If it comes from China, I don't want it!

[MaximRecoil]

Back to the question of reproduction grills.
IMO it is no secret that there is a need for these grills.

It is the natural order of things that where there is a need someone will fill it.

Someone may fill the demand or someone may not. There's a demand for countless things that no one is filling. I'd like to be able to buy a brand new '69 Dodge Charger at my local Chrysler dealership, but Chrysler isn't making any, and I'm pretty sure they never will. About the best that can be hoped for is replacement parts, and a reproduction bodyshell from an aftermarket company (that one is still yet to come, if it ever happens at all).

If China could meet the demand you bet they would (for the price and quantity in demand). That they as yet have not speaks for it's self.

That doesn't indicate anything meaningful. There are countless potential products they could make that they don't. There needs to be more than just a demand (that the various Chinese factories may or may not be aware of); the right sequence of events needs to happen. Getting back to my Sanyo flyback example; there were people that needed these for a long time, and up until a few years ago, they were out of luck. Did the Chinese factories know that there was a demand for this particular part, or were they even aware of the existence of this particular part? Who knows; but if the guy from Cinelabs hadn't reverse engineered the part and placed the order, it is almost certain that it never would have been made.

If the original tooling still exists and access to it were permitted they could be reproduced in the quantity needed and beat the overseas competition.

It is a safe bet that Chrysler's original tooling is long gone, though they may still have blueprints, which would be very helpful. They likely wouldn't give them away though; it would have to be through some sort of licensing agreement, which probably wouldn't be cheap.

[ws23rt]

On a side note.............If it comes from China, I don't want it!

I am with you on that!   I am even tempted to make them myself.
However I am booked up till I'm 106.79 years old. And then I plan to take it easy.
There are plenty of great mechanics playing video games (or impersonating TV/cartoon characters) that could make it happen.
Much talent is idling in this country.  It seems like such a waste of creativity and motivation.

[TexasGeneral]

If someone will work with me (as I do not have a 69 grill..only a 68) I will start the 3D drawing in ProE and/or AutoCad.... and then flood the internet with free copies of the drawing just so someone will make the d@mn things.. I dont want to make money from it, I just want everyone to have a grill that needs one

[Cooter]

See "Bobfist" he should have all you need....Including new grilles.

[ws23rt]

Back to the question of reproduction grills.
IMO it is no secret that there is a need for these grills.

It is the natural order of things that where there is a need someone will fill it.

Someone may fill the demand or someone may not. There's a demand for countless things that no one is filling. I'd like to be able to buy a brand new '69 Dodge Charger at my local Chrysler dealership, but Chrysler isn't making any, and I'm pretty sure they never will. About the best that can be hoped for is replacement parts, and a reproduction bodyshell from an aftermarket company (that one is still yet to come, if it ever happens at all).

If China could meet the demand you bet they would (for the price and quantity in demand). That they as yet have not speaks for it's self.

That doesn't indicate anything meaningful. There are countless potential products they could make that they don't. There needs to be more than just a demand (that the various Chinese factories may or may not be aware of); the right sequence of events needs to happen. Getting back to my Sanyo flyback example; there were people that needed these for a long time, and up until a few years ago, they were out of luck. Did the Chinese factories know that there was a demand for this particular part, or were they even aware of the existence of this particular part? Who knows; but if the guy from Cinelabs hadn't reverse engineered the part and placed the order, it is almost certain that it never would have been made.

If the original tooling still exists and access to it were permitted they could be reproduced in the quantity needed and beat the overseas competition.

It is a safe bet that Chrysler's original tooling is long gone, though they may still have blueprints, which would be very helpful. They likely wouldn't give them away though; it would have to be through some sort of licensing agreement, which probably wouldn't be cheap.

Maxim will you please stop teaching me new things about how the world works and spanking me for being so profoundly ignorant.  I know enough stuff to get me by just fine.
Thanks

[ws23rt]

If someone will work with me (as I do not have a 69 grill..only a 68) I will start the 3D drawing in ProE and/or AutoCad.... and then flood the internet with free copies of the drawing just so someone will make the d@mn things.. I dont want to make money from it, I just want everyone to have a grill that needs one

I like that.
But if someone could come up with the bottom line cost and at the end of the day everyone involved received due compensation that price in my mind would be the price.  Some will fix what they have and some will want better and pay for it.