Cam degreeing: I USED to think it was a waste, but now IT RUNS !!!

[Kern Dog]

....Now.
I've been working on cars as a hobby since I bought my first car, the 69 Dart in 1982. I built my first motor in 1992, a Chevy 350. Since then, I've built many more. Chevys, a few imports, then in 1998 I built my first 360 Mopar. Since then, I've only built Mopar stuff because it was all I wanted to own.
I've built 4 440 engines. The one in the 70 Charger is actually a 493. I love that car. The bodylines, the styling... These cars just ooze "cool". I built this engine in 2004 with a 4.15 crank, edelbrock heads, an 850 carb, 2" headers.... and what I thought was a decent choice for a camshaft: The 292/509. I had a buddy help me degree it in. With the dots aligned and the crank gear at the ZERO setting, it came in at 1.5 degrees retarded.  Ah well, close enough, right?
Well, over the years, I've dealt with an engine that runs okay in cold weather but detonates when it warms up. When using 91 octane pump gas, I cant push it past 3/4 throttle without knocking. If I run 100 octane gas, it will not ping. For quite some time, I've felt that the engine was performing well below its potential. I've read here and there that these "500" inch engines can make 500 HP or more even without head porting, 14 to 1 compression or radical camshafts. My car registered 369 HP on a chassis dyno in 2005. Even accounting for a 20% HP loss through the drivetrain, this still equates to 442 HP. This isn't very impresssive to me.
I've been busy on the internet asking about what can be done. Mine is a two-fold problem: Eliminate the detonation and increase the power. The majority of the responses related to a camshaft swap. The 509 cam was deemed to be too mild to be a good match for both 493 cubic inches and 10.7 compression.

[Kern Dog]

.....So on the advice of many online car guys, I picked a cam. Most guys said I needed MORE lift, MORE duration and most important: a later intake closing.
I went with a Lunati solid flat tappet. Some said I should get a roller cam, but I just couldn't justify the expense.  The cam is pretty rowdy to me, but may seem tame to others. It is the 316/326 with 261/271 degrees INT/EXH @ .050, .558/.578 lift with the 1.6 rocker arms after deducting the valve lash. The intake closing isover 11 degrees later than the 509 too.
With this cam, I was advised to degree the camshaft. I have made some misguided moves in the past so I was determined to do this right. I asked more questions, read in the archives on several forums and watched YouTube videos on Camshaft Degreeing. I bought a degree wheel kit, a crank hub with a 1/2" drive and went to it. This is my first time degreeing a cam on my own, and I have encountered several obstacles.
First up, the piston stop included in the degree kit is/was a flimsy POS. It is a 14 mm "plug" that threads into the spark plug hole. It is threaded inside for a 3/8"x 16 bolt.  The bolt is supposed to be screwed in until it touches the piston. (More on this in a moment)
I followed the instructions to the letter. I attached the crank hub and rotated the engine to establish TDC. I bent the piston stop, so I removed it and straightened it out. I bent it again. HOW you may ask? Well, the engine was hard to spin over with the compression it has. I couldn't tell when I was hitting the stop because the resistance to turning was so much. THEN I read in one of my threads online that the spark plugs are supposed to be OUT when doing this! Okay, some may think I am stupid for not knowing this, but I never read it written anywhere before or mentioned in the videos. Also, I was later advised that the rocker arms should be removed.

[Kern Dog]

Okay, so here I am: The cam is in and the timing set is on in the ZERO/dot to dot position. The cam card shows a 108 LSA with an installed centerline of 106 for a 2 degree advance. I have the dial indicator set up and it checks out at 110. Okay, I see that it means that I am 4 degrees retarded. I called it a day and figured to recheck the next day. After all, I've read that you need to be able to repeat your numbers to know that you have it right.
Next day I get the same numbers. The timing set has 3 settings. 4 degrees RETARD, Zero and 4 degrees ADVANCE. Since the numbers came in as being 4 degrees retarded, I figured to switch the crank gear to the 4 degree ADV setting, thinking that it should put me right on the 106 number. Well, this change put me at 103. Huh? Yeah, the simple change made a difference of 7 degrees. Obviously I cant leave it at either setting because they are both outside an acceptable "margain of error".
It is odd though. The dot-to-dot setting was off by 4 degrees. The 4* ADV setting (In a perfect world) should have resulted in a 102 number, instead it was off by a single degree. The discrepency had me looking for something to blame.
The crank hub slips over the snout and has keyways to fit around the Woodruff key. I am on the smallest notch and it still has some play in it. I've tightened down the set screw to the point where I thought I'd snap my allen wrench, but I still was getting about 2 degrees of slop when alternating between a clockwise rotation and a counter-clockwise turn. I feel that this 2 degree + or minus slop is partly to blame. I decided to pull the hub and mount the degree wheel to the crank directly using the dampner bolt. As I was trying to determine TDC for the umpteenth time, I bent the piston stop again. At this point I was pissed and sweaty, so I called it a day.

[Kern Dog]

I came inside and sat a short time, then ordered a solid brass piston stop from Summit racing. This one threads in like the other one, but it is robust enough to NOT bend when I spin the engine up to it. It is from Crane Cams and cost $13. It has a hole in the center to allow compression to escape too.
That was Tuesday. I've been busy with other stuff the last 2 days. I'm still thinking though about what to do to get the cam in at the 106 number. Lets say that I can get the degree wheel set in place and can spin the engine with zero slop. Lets say that I establish TDC and now that I dont have that 2 degree slop, it results in a 108 installed number at dot-to-dot. Would YOU leave it there? If I try the 4* ADV notch and it comes in at 104-105, is that preferrable?
Would it make sense to start with a tad more advance given that the timing chain will stretch and retard the cam as a result?

[ws23rt]

Are you taking your two degree measurements (before TDC and after TCD) while rotating clockwise (engine rotation)?
If you don't than the backlash in the chain and sprockets will affect the results.
Also 2 degrees of slop in the damper to crank key fit seems too much.  Set screw on key?  Need picture.

[Kern Dog]

I can post a picture today. The engine turning hub is an aluminum collar that slides over the snout of the crank sorta like the balancer. It has a tapped hole with a screw that is supposed to tighten and positively lock the collar to the crankshaft. The problem is, the Woodruffkey in the crank is a fraction smaller than the groove in the collar, and the hub slips even with the set screw really tight.

[HPP]

It is odd though. The dot-to-dot setting was off by 4 degrees. The 4* ADV setting (In a perfect world) should have resulted in a 102 number, instead it was off by a single degree. The discrepency had me looking for something to blame.

The timing set is probably the culprit. Talk to any engine builder who has been in it for a while and they will tell you that some timing sets are machined like a horeshoe set, ie, close enough, let it go. This single facet of building power is enough to necessitate degreeing. As you discoverd, simply setting it up dot to dot produced a margin of error that likely could contribute to later driving manners that are not what you expected and could cause problems with detonation.

I also agree with ws23rt, you reading all need to be in one direction when taking measurements. Backlash in the timing set can produce varied results and as you noted, you cannot tighten the turning socket to be perfectly solid either. If you do reverse things, at least back them off far enough tha tyou can take of the slack again before reaching reading key points.

[oldschool]

those keyway chain sets are never accurate. they are still nice thou as you can move them around to many combinations. if you are sure of 103*, I would run it at that. as the chain set wears, it will naturally retard. 3* advanced is not bad at all......

[cdr]

in your case run it at 106,you have already had a detonation problem with the other cam.

[oldschool]

in your case run it at 106,you have already had a detonation problem with the other cam.

he could not get 106*. he was either 110* or 103*. his new cam should bleed off more cylinder pressure than the old one.....

[cdr]

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/ofcamkey1.html

[Kern Dog]

The intake closing of the Lunati cam is around 11 degrees later than the MP 509, so I would think that even with this cam advanced a bit more than what is recommended, I still should see an improvement.
I hope to get back to it tomorrow.

[fy469rtse]

  huh , still waiting to see what happened , please post result

[Kern Dog]

I am anxious to get the car started, but as is often the case, LIFE gets in the way.
I parted out a 68 Plymouth station wagon. I started in on it late last week. Over the weekend, I cut it up and stowed away the parts that will get saved and sold. Today was cleanup day. I took the scrap metal in to the recycler. Tomorrow I'll take in the aluminum trim, stainless and other non ferrous stuff. I should be able to get back to it in the afternoon if the weather isn't too hot. I love the long days of summer, but 103 in the shade can be hard to take!
I'm looking forward to making some 11 second quarter mile passes soon.

[Kern Dog]

Cooler weather is coming....
I was able to get out and establish TDC today. That solid brass piston stop is bad ass! I was able to get it right on the first try. I rechecked myself twice to make sure that I was right on. I'm back at it again tomorrow. Hopefully my luck with the numbers will be better than before.

[Kern Dog]

Stung by a bee yesterday while mowing the lawn, so I called it quits afterward.
TODAY though....
The cam card calls for a 108 LSA with an installed centerline of 106. I degreed it today and the first number came in at 73. The second was 139 for a 212 total. Divided by 2, I am EXACTLY at the 106 number with no additional work needed. I am at the ZERO/Dot-to-dot setting too. That crappy loose fitting crank turning hub resulted in a 4 degree difference in the settings. I was dead on with the cam timing though the sloppy tools showed that I was off by 4 degrees. GOOD tools make a huge difference.
Next, I have to finish up the cam install. I'm changing valvesprings, swapping in a 6 quart oil pan and a few other things.

[cdr]

how did you come up with those #s,,,,at what lifter lift.

[Kern Dog]

I followed the instructions in the degree kit. You crank the engine until the intake valve gets to maximum lift, then set the dial indicator to ZERO. You then turn the engine CCW intil the dial indicator reads .100. Then you turn the crank clockwise until the indicator reads .050. Look at the degree wheel and record that number. Mine was 73 degrees. The engine is then spun CLOCKWISE until it reaches zero and up to .050 again. Record that number. Mine was 139. take the 2 numbers and add them, then divide by 2. I got 212 which averages to 106.
Score!

After the degree work was done, I changed the valvesprings, installed the pushrods and rocker arms, then set the lash. THEN I remembered that the lash settings were supposed to be set HOT. Uhhh... okay, the engine is cold because I havent ran it in a few weeks. So I guess I need to add a couple of thousandths to the lash, right?
The cam card calls for .020/ .022 for the lash INT/EXH.

[Kern Dog]

I had my thinking wrong.
I checked the Lunati site for help, but they had zero info on setting lash. I checked tech archives and found that most guys agree that with aluminum heads/iron block, the lash should be .006 tighter than the "hot" settings. This means that my .020 and .022 HOT settings can be set cold at .014 & .016 cold.

[Kern Dog]

Its almost ready to fire.
I went and reset the valve lash to .014 INT and .016 EXH. In theory, this should be spot on when the engine warms up and the lash widens. Valley pan and intake are on. I changed the PV from a 3.5 to a 6.5. The 85/93 jets were changed to 86/94.
Trouble with the oil pan install though. I pulled the chrome pan I had on there along with the steel MP windage tray. I bought one of the Jegs molded plastic windage trays to replace the steel one. The Jegs tray has twin rubber ribs in place of conventional gaskets. It is similar to the plastic 727 and 904 trans pan gaskets from Mopar.
The Jegs tray didn't fit. It hit the rod caps! Turns out the one I had was for stock stroke. I have the 4.15 crank. The long stroke tray won't be available until mid October, so I reused the steel one. The Milodon 6 quart pan fit great. The sump extends a bit closer to the K member as well as rearward. The area over the steering link is shallower on the Milodon pan, giving more clearance.
Still need to install the plugs, wires and distributor cap. Oh... I'm going to need another radiator cap too. Mine got lost during all of this!

[2Luke2]

Glad to hear you're getting everything back together! Can't wait to hear the results! Thanks for keeping us updated.

[mauve66]

you done yet???   

[Kern Dog]

Life keeps getting in the way! I have help coming over tomorrow. I always have a helper when I break in a cam or a new engine.
Today I wanted help from the wife, but she was busy with work and not very friendly.

[Kern Dog]

The cam and lifter break-in is done!
I will readily admit.. I have been pretty nervous about this whole thing. I have had some good luck and some bad with camshafts. This is my first solid lifter cam and my first time degreeing anything. I spent a good chunk of money over the past few months on Rocker arms, Lunati solid cam, Howards lifters, Crower pushrods, Milodon oil pan, Edelbrock timing set and the tools to degree this dude right. I used a good quality break in oil, Moly lube on the cam and lifters and a bottle of the Comp cams supplement. This afternoon I preoiled the engine with the hex rod in a drill, then waited for my brothet in law.
Jeff showed up and we got to it. I did all the usual stuff along with what Rick Ehrenberg wrote in the "First Fire" article in this months Mopar Action article. The engine started within 2 seconds and Jeff brought it up to 2600-2800 rpms while I checked for leaks. I was happy to find none anywhere. The exhaust sounded great from behind the car. Oddly, it smelled cleaner than it has before. No stinging eyes from an over-rich condition, thats for sure. Oil pressure was 80 when cold, dropping to 58-60 when up to temp. Fuel pressure was between 7-8 lbs. By the 15 minute mark, the furl pressure dropped to below 3 lbs and the engine stumbled. I looked at the fuel filter to see it was nearly dry. I had Jeff shut it down. We let it cool and came back 2 1/2 hours later. The filter now had some gas in it and the fuel bowl in the carb had gas!
I started it up and ran it again, now up around 2900 rpms. BY 10 minutes in, the fuel pressure dropped again to below 3 lbs and as the engine started to stumble, I shut it down again. I have a Holley mechanical pump part # 12-440-11 rated at 110 GPH. At idle, this pump shows between 7-9 lbs now and before with the '509 cam. I drive this car at freeway speeds, doing 2600-3000 rpms and have never had a fuel starvation problem. I guess I need another pump, huh?

[Kern Dog]

I expected the solid lifters to make more clatter. I expected the cam to sound more lopey. I'm not complaining, I just expected it to sound more radical. I didn't drive it yet. The fuel pump may be okay for some breif street action, but I may have to upgrade it. I have had fuel starvation problems before that came down to kinks in the fuel line. I wonder if the demands of this cam will result in the need of a higher rated fuel pump?