How to change a distributor in a 318

[MaximRecoil]

you still got 12v to the OE ballast resistor....via the ignition switch....

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said in my previous post about why there's no reason to use a relay on the stock ignition. In any event, the "12v to the OE ballast resistor" point has already been addressed in my previous post, and with the explanation from "Olafla". In short, due to the relatively long run of thin factory wiring, and going through the bulkhead connector twice, and the ignition switch; the voltage at the factory wire to the coil is significantly less than it is at e.g. the alternator stud. With a relay you've got a short run of wire, as heavy as you want, feeding it from a full voltage source, resulting in no significant voltage drop.

now you added a relay to the car, via the ignition switch....and now you got 4 more connections that you didn't have originally that can fail along with the relay...

Those 4 connections aren't going to fail, ever, unless by some miracle, the terminal tabs spontaneously break off the relay. I know how to make proper wire terminations.

I really don't follow your logic on adding more stuff to go wrong.

Because the risk of the "more stuff" causing something to go wrong is plenty minimal enough that the benefits of the relay outweigh it (modern automakers agree, as there are lots of relays in newer vehicles). Additionally, in the event that something does go wrong, it is trivial, since it is such an easy fix (no bigger of a deal than a blown fuse).

[A383Wing]

Those 4 connections aren't going to fail, ever, unless by some miracle, the terminal tabs spontaneously break off the relay. I know how to make proper wire terminations.

bulkhead connections never fail either

[MaximRecoil]

bulkhead connections never fail either

Mine has never failed, but when they do fail, it is for obvious reasons, none of which apply to my relay connections. For starters, you have the weight of a lengthy wiring harness constantly pulling at a ~right angle against them, and secondly, you have a couple of high current circuits in there for which the Packard 56 terminals weren't adequate, even when new, to say nothing of when they are a few decades old. This can cause overheating and melt the connector.

ISO relays are designed for automotive use, and they've had a pretty good track record so far. The benefit of less voltage drop is far more important to me than any "what ifs" about relay failure, especially since it is so utterly trivial to fix if one does fail.

You know, the headlight relay modification seems to be popular on this forum, and a relay failure in that application could easily get someone killed, while a relay failure in my ignition circuit only means my car won't start or it stalls. So, do you also question the logic of "adding more stuff to go wrong" in the headlight circuit? I'll have to check that big headlight relay thread to see if you or John_Kunkel have questioned everyone about that.

[A383Wing]

headlight relay is different than relay for ignition circuit...there is hardly any amp draw for ignition, but many amps for headlights....but now adding more connections to ignition circuit via a relay will cause more voltage loss than if you left it alone in the first place. As I said, 4 more connections to fail now instead of the original, what, one or 2 connections originally?

[MaximRecoil]

headlight relay is different than relay for ignition circuit...there is hardly any amp draw for ignition but many amps for headlights....

Except, I'm not using Mopar ignition. I'm using General Motors HEI ignition, and the HEI ignition module draws about 4 amps alone (~50 watts), and can very briefly draw up to 25 amps upon startup. High performance HEI ignition modules draw about 8 amps alone (~100 watts), which is as much as two typical 50 watt high beam halogen headlights. They also want a steady ~14 volts, unlike the stock ignition, which can be fed 14 volts or 12 volts or whatever; it doesn't matter because it gets knocked down to like 7 or 8 volts or whatever by the ballast resistor anyway once the engine is running.

but now adding more connections to ignition circuit via a relay will cause more voltage loss than if you left it alone in the first place.

That's demonstrably false (easily proven false with a voltmeter). By the way, I get the ~same voltage at my coil through the relay as I do at the battery and alternator stud (whatever trivial voltage drop there is, my meter isn't sensitive enough to measure it).

As I said, 4 more connections to fail now instead of the original, what, one or 2 connections originally?

Those connections aren't going to fail; the very idea of it is absurd. What do you think I did, "twist and tape"? The number of connections is irrelevant; a spit in the ocean next to the total number of connections in the car from the factory (hundreds of crimps and terminal connections).

I noticed you didn't address the following:

You know, the headlight relay modification seems to be popular on this forum, and a relay failure in that application could easily get someone killed, while a relay failure in my ignition circuit only means my car won't start or it stalls.

So why are you making an issue of potential failure of a relay in an application where the consequences of a failure are trivial, yet you endorse the use of relays in an application where the consequences of a failure could easily get someone killed?

[ws23rt]

headlight relay is different than relay for ignition circuit...there is hardly any amp draw for ignition but many amps for headlights....

Except, I'm not using Mopar ignition. I'm using General Motors HEI ignition, and the HEI ignition module draws about 4 amps alone (~50 watts), and can very briefly draw up to 25 amps upon startup. High performance HEI ignition modules draw about 8 amps alone (~100 watts), which is as much as two typical 50 watt high beam halogen headlights. They also want a steady ~14 volts, unlike the stock ignition, which can be fed 14 volts or 12 volts or whatever; it doesn't matter because it gets knocked down to like 7 or 8 volts or whatever by the ballast resistor anyway once the engine is running.

but now adding more connections to ignition circuit via a relay will cause more voltage loss than if you left it alone in the first place.

That's demonstrably false (easily proven false with a voltmeter). By the way, I get the ~same voltage at my coil through the relay as I do at the battery and alternator stud (whatever trivial voltage drop there is, my meter isn't sensitive enough to measure it).

As I said, 4 more connections to fail now instead of the original, what, one or 2 connections originally?

Those connections aren't going to fail; the very idea of it is absurd. What do you think I did, "twist and tape"? The number of connections is irrelevant; a spit in the ocean next to the total number of connections in the car from the factory (hundreds of crimps and terminal connections).

I noticed you didn't address the following:

You know, the headlight relay modification seems to be popular on this forum, and a relay failure in that application could easily get someone killed, while a relay failure in my ignition circuit only means my car won't start or it stalls.

So why are you making an issue of potential failure of a relay in an application where the consequences of a failure are trivial, yet you endorse the use of relays in an application where the consequences of a failure could easily get someone killed?

Hi MaximRecoil
I have been reading this thread and am not about to respond to electrical issues under discussion. I believe that to do so would be of no value.
When others have proposed an idea or opinion you seem to be able to reject them all as absurd.
Your handle on this topic seems to be so complete that maybe we should get in touch with you on these questions.
BTW were you able to tell us how to change a distributor in a 318?

[MaximRecoil]

Hi MaximRecoil
I have been reading this thread and am not about to respond to electrical issues under discussion. I believe that to do so would be of no value.

There is nothing that needs a response with regard to the electrical side of things anyway, given that I don't have any electrical problems (the proposed "what ifs" from a couple of people on this thread are not problems).

When others have proposed an idea or opinion you seem to be able to reject them all as absurd.

I rejected one notion as absurd; "one" being strikingly different than "all".

Your handle on this topic seems to be so complete that maybe we should get in touch with you on these questions.

My handle on the topic of the HEI conversion is rather complete, given that I've already done it and it works perfectly. That's why I didn't ask any questions here about the HEI conversion; I already knew how to do it.

BTW were you able to tell us how to change a distributor in a 318?

Did you even read this thread? There have been no arguments about how to change a distributor, and as it turned out, it was just as I wrote in my OP:

I've heard/read various things, not necessarily specific to 318 engines, about having the engine at TDC and such, but a Chrysler 318 distributor looks like it can only go in one of two ways, due to the way the bottom of its shaft is shaped like a flat-blade screwdriver. So if you have the rotor and the vacuum advance can pointing in the same directions as on the old distributor, wouldn't that automatically mean it is in the right way?

It only took a few minutes.

There have also been no arguments about anything distributor-related, such as setting the timing. The only arguments have been with regard to the relay in the HEI ignition circuit, which has nothing to do with the distributor, nor did I ever request opinions or ask any questions about the relay. I already understand relays perfectly well, along with the pros and cons of using them, which is why I didn't ask about them. 

[ACUDANUT]

Quote : There have also been no arguments about anything distributor-related, such as setting the timing. The only arguments have been with regard to the relay in the HEI ignition circuit, which has nothing to do with the distributor, nor did I ever request opinions or ask any questions about the relay. I already understand relays perfectly well, along with the pros and cons of using them, which is why I didn't ask about them

Sorry I could not help. Jeez.

[ws23rt]

You are right on every count.

I saw no arguments here just discussion points. It is truly amazing that the old system works at all. What were they thinking?

I did read this thread. The question about changing the distributor was rhetorical.

My posting on this topic was motivated by a defensive instinct that was triggered.

I should have kept my typing shut.

[ACUDANUT]

"How to change a distributor in a 318"
Okay, you don't want opinions.  So, to change a distributor in a 318..You must unbolt the Dist. hold down clamp.  Unlock the cap with wires and pull the Disp.  Re-install the opposite. 

[MaximRecoil]

You are right on every count.

I saw no arguments here just discussion points. It is truly amazing that the old system works at all. What were they thinking?

No, it isn't. The old system doesn't use full alternator voltage to feed the ignition system while running; there is a ballast resistor in there to drop the voltage. Relays are used to reduce voltage drop to a component, thus they offer no advantage in the old system. Additionally, the HEI system that I am now using would work without a relay; a relay is simply better, for reasons that have already been explained.

I did read this thread. The question about changing the distributor was rhetorical.

The question made no sense in the context of this thread. It only would have made sense in a thread where someone asked how to install a distributor, and then argued with the replies correctly telling him how to change the distributor. In fact, none of your efforts toward sarcasm make any sense in the context of this thread, which indicates that you either didn't read the thread, or you didn't pay adequate attention to what you were reading.

Sorry I could not help. Jeez.

Say what?

"How to change a distributor in a 318"
Okay, you don't want opinions.

I don't care if people offer unsolicited opinions on tangential matters, but they shouldn't be surprised or take it personally when they get an argument in return.    

So, to change a distributor in a 318..You must unbolt the Dist. hold down clamp.  Unlock the cap with wires and pull the Disp.  Re-install the opposite.

Yes, I already did that, which I noted in the first sentence of reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 06:25:43 PM.

[John_Kunkel]

That's demonstrably false (easily proven false with a voltmeter). By the way, I get the ~same voltage at my coil through the relay as I do at the battery and alternator stud (whatever trivial voltage drop there is, my meter isn't sensitive enough to measure it).

Any properly working system will have the same voltage at all points and the amount of voltage entering a ballast will affect the voltage coming out of it so a properly working system is essential to both.

Did the HEI system on the GM car use a relay?

[MaximRecoil]

Any properly working system will have the same voltage at all points

No, it won't. Long runs of thin wire and inadequate terminals (such as the Packard 56 terminals in the bulkhead connector; not adequate for substantial current, even when new) introduce significant resistance to the circuit, which = significant voltage drop relative to the source.

and the amount of voltage entering a ballast will affect the voltage coming out of it so a properly working system is essential to both.

Not exactly. Sending more voltage/current to the ballast resistor doesn't mean more exits it; all you end up doing is increasing the heat in the ballast resistor. Send it 12 volts or send it 14 volts, it doesn't matter (as long as there is adequate amperage for the stock ignition); the same e.g. 9 volts comes out; the only difference is that the ballast resistor will be cooler if sent 12 volts rather than 14. The ballast resistor will continue to do this no matter how much voltage/current you send it, right up to its point of failure (send too much to it for too long and you'll simply burn it out; you don't get increased output, nor do you want increased output; the ballast resistor is there for a good reason in a stock ignition system).

Home > Library > Science > Sci-Tech Encyclopedia

A resistor that has the property of increasing in resistance as current flowing through it increases, and decreasing in resistance as current decreases. Therefore the ballast resistor tends to maintain a constant current flowing through it, despite variations in applied voltage or changes in the rest of the circuit. See also Resistor.

The ballast action is obtained by using resistive material that increases in resistance as temperature increases. Any increase in current then causes an increase in temperature, which results in an increase in resistance and reduces the current. Ballast resistors may be wire-wound resistors. Other types, also called ballast tubes, are usually mounted in an evacuated envelope to reduce heat radiation.

Ballast resistors have been used to compensate for variations in line voltage, as in some automotive ignition systems, or to compensate for negative volt-ampere characteristics of other devices, such as fluorescent lamps and other vapor lamps. See also Fluorescent lamp; Vapor lamp; Voltage regulator.

Did the HEI system on the GM car use a relay?

I have no idea, nor do I know how good GM's wiring design was to begin with. I am, however, familiar with the Mopar wiring in my car, it isn't a very good design. The particular bulkhead connector they used is an especially poor design, and the full load ammeter setup is crap too (a design which GM and Ford abandoned long before Chrysler did).

The HEI module has a higher demand than the stock Chrysler electronic ignition module, and an especially higher demand than the stock points-type ignition that my car had. The relay ensures that the demand is met, and it is the easiest way of doing so (redesigning the original circuit is not an easier way). You can concern yourself about a potential relay failure in my car if you want to, but as for me, I'll lose no sleep over the matter, since both the fix and the consequences of the failure are extremely trivial.

[John_Kunkel]

Did the HEI system on the GM car use a relay?

I have no idea, nor do I know how good GM's wiring design was to begin with.

Of course it didn't have a relay, the question was rhetorical to show the absurdity of your whole argument. GM switches, firewall connectors and ammeters were the same as the whole industry back then.

Your ballast theory observations are equally absurd. The use of the GM HEI module on Mopars isn't a new idea but the relay is.

[MaximRecoil]

Of course it didn't have a relay, the question was rhetorical to show the absurdity of your whole argument.

Except, that doesn't show any "absurdity" at all. I've already established that the relay does what I want it to do (less voltage drop, easily measured with a meter). If GM vehicles didn't have a relay, and had wiring that resulted in significant voltage drop at the HEI module, then it could have been improved with a relay, obviously.

GM switches, firewall connectors and ammeters were the same as the whole industry back then.

False. GM vehicles had long since ditched full load ammeters by the time they started using HEI (1974/1975). They had volt meters and/or warning lights. As far as your claim that they used the same bulkhead connectors as Chrysler did, well, citation needed.

Your ballast theory observations are equally absurd.

"My theory"? Is that a joke? Evidently the bolding didn't help last time, so here goes again, this time with colors:

Home > Library > Science > Sci-Tech Encyclopedia

A resistor that has the property of increasing in resistance as current flowing through it increases, and decreasing in resistance as current decreases. Therefore the ballast resistor tends to maintain a constant current flowing through it, despite variations in applied voltage or changes in the rest of the circuit. See also Resistor.

The ballast action is obtained by using resistive material that increases in resistance as temperature increases. Any increase in current then causes an increase in temperature, which results in an increase in resistance and reduces the current. Ballast resistors may be wire-wound resistors. Other types, also called ballast tubes, are usually mounted in an evacuated envelope to reduce heat radiation.

Ballast resistors have been used to compensate for variations in line voltage, as in some automotive ignition systems, or to compensate for negative volt-ampere characteristics of other devices, such as fluorescent lamps and other vapor lamps. See also Fluorescent lamp; Vapor lamp; Voltage regulator.

Do the colors help? By the way, why do you think it is called a ballast resistor, instead of just a resistor? Do you know what the word ballast means? It is something used to keep something stable. A ballast resistor keeps the output stable, regardless of variations in the input. You are under the impression that a ballast resistor is no different than an ordinary resistor; you're wrong.

The use of the GM HEI module on Mopars isn't a new idea but the relay is.

Is that another joke? Here's a thread from 2006, written by Daniel Stern, a frequent Allpar.com contributor, and the guy that wrote the original online Mopar headlight relay upgrade guide from 1998 (link). Daniel Stern's HEI conversion guide is the one that's most commonly referenced online. Scroll down to the "Power relay" section of the guide:

Power relay

You'll want to add a power relay to guarantee full line voltage to the ignition module at all times. If the ignition module is starved for power, it'll work unreliably and it'll die prematurely. The module really needs to see full line voltage, and the wiring in most of our cars isn't up to that task after all these years. So, when setting up your module wiring, it's best to install a relay that'll provide full line voltage to the module via the coil + terminal.
Use a good brand of relay (Bosch/Tyco, Omron, and Hella are three good picks). You need an ordinary 4-prong normally-open ("SPST") relay. The prongs will be labelled #30, #85, #86, and #87.

Every claim you have made thus far has been refuted.

[ws23rt]

And there we have it.
Every claim made has been refuted. It's a done deal.

I know it is cause I used the color coding to help read what someone else says.

We have new facts now.  An old fact is that the cars that we have been involved with all these years worked just fine if cared for and maintained.
A new fact is that changes can be made and they will continue to work fine.

If any circuit in the car becomes an issue (real or otherwise) it can be redone (improved) for piece of mind.

I for one always wonder if the glove box light goes out when I close it. A timer on that circuit would help but than I would wonder if the timer was working properly. So an LED indicator light could be added to help my obsession. That circuit could give a false indication of a partial system malfunction. But if that happened there could be a trigger that would call my cell phone.  Then I could call my car and tell it to turn the light out.  

[MaximRecoil]

And there we have it.
Every claim made has been refuted. It's a done deal.

I know it is cause I used the color coding to help read what someone else says.

We have new facts now.  An old fact is that the cars that we have been involved with all these years worked just fine if cared for and maintained.
A new fact is that changes can be made and they will continue to work fine.

If any circuit in the car becomes an issue (real or otherwise) it can be redone (improved) for piece of mind.

I for one always wonder if the glove box light goes out when I close it. A timer on that circuit would help but than I would wonder if the timer was working properly. So an LED indicator light could be added to help my obsession. That circuit could give a false indication of a partial system malfunction. But if that happened there could be a trigger that would call my cell phone.  Then I could call my car and tell it to turn the light out.  

More misplaced sarcasm; consider it dismissed out of hand due to its utter irrelevance and lack of basis.

Here is how it works if you want to do it correctly:

1. First establish that someone is wrong.
2. Then bust out your low-rent sarcasm if you wish.

You skipped part one.

[ws23rt]

And there we have it.
Every claim made has been refuted. It's a done deal.

I know it is cause I used the color coding to help read what someone else says.

We have new facts now.  An old fact is that the cars that we have been involved with all these years worked just fine if cared for and maintained.
A new fact is that changes can be made and they will continue to work fine.

If any circuit in the car becomes an issue (real or otherwise) it can be redone (improved) for piece of mind.

I for one always wonder if the glove box light goes out when I close it. A timer on that circuit would help but than I would wonder if the timer was working properly. So an LED indicator light could be added to help my obsession. That circuit could give a false indication of a partial system malfunction. But if that happened there could be a trigger that would call my cell phone.  Then I could call my car and tell it to turn the light out.  

More misplaced sarcasm; consider it dismissed out of hand due to its utter irrelevance and lack of basis.

Here is how it works if you want to do it correctly:

1. First establish that someone is wrong.
2. Then bust out your low-rent sarcasm if you wish.

You skipped part one.

So if I want to use sarcasm correctly I should follow your steps?
Please show me the basis upon which you establish sarcasm to be correct.  Color codes would be helpful.

1. I accepted all you had to say as being correct.
2. Sarcasm is a very condensed way of communicating.  It can be high-rent or low-rent.

Again I think I am stepping in on this thread for no other reason than I feel defensive for me and other posters.
Do you talk to others this way face to face on a daily basis?

[MaximRecoil]

So if I want to use sarcasm correctly I should follow your steps?

In order to use sarcasm correctly, you need to do it in accordance with logic, else it is misplaced/senseless. I pointed out the steps which are in accordance with logic.

Please show me the basis upon which you establish sarcasm to be correct.

The basis is logic. See above.

Color codes would be helpful.

This is a good example. My "color codes" were posted sarcastically, and it was properly placed sarcasm, because the text that I "color coded" had already been posted once before, and it proved the other poster wrong. He ignored the text which proved him wrong; called it "my theory" and said it was absurd. That is an obvious cue for sarcasm highlighting his inability to properly read and/or accept the text which proved him wrong.

Your attempt at sarcasm here is misplaced however.

1. I accepted all you had to say as being correct.

Which leaves no proper place for sarcasm, at least not sarcasm of the variety you are attempting. Again, see above.

2. Sarcasm is a very condensed way of communicating.  It can be high-rent or low-rent.

Your efforts toward sarcasm are decidedly low-rent, even if they were properly placed, which they are not.

Again I think I am stepping in on this thread for no other reason than I feel defensive for me and other posters.

That's irrational. A rational reason would be if you had something relevant to contribute to the discussion and/or argument.

Do you talk to others this way face to face on a daily basis?

Do you? For example, in real life, do you make a habit of interjecting yourself into arguments despite only having misplaced sarcasm to offer, rather than arguments?

[JB400]

Well, I'm glad to see that you two are getting that distributor installed in that 318.   

[ws23rt]

Well, I'm glad to see that you two are getting that distributor installed in that 318.  

I hope you are not color blind.. Look out---

[JB400]

Well, I'm glad to see that you two are getting that distributor installed in that 318.  

I hope you are not color blind.. Look out---

Not by any means.  I didn't even bother reading the thread until now.  Afterwards, I say it is best to just let Maximum Recoil do things his way.  If they work, that's an A+.     If not, lesson learned.  Considering the conversation had switched to being sarcastic, my response was just a way to break into a runaway train.

[ws23rt]

Well, I'm glad to see that you two are getting that distributor installed in that 318.  

I hope you are not color blind.. Look out---

Not by any means.  I didn't even bother reading the thread until now.  Afterwards, I say it is best to just let Maximum Recoil do things his way.  If they work, that's an A+.     If not, lesson learned.  Considering the conversation had switched to being sarcastic, my response was just a way to break into a runaway train.

I had just stepped off that train anyway. The circle had been made more than once.

[MaximRecoil]

Not by any means.  I didn't even bother reading the thread until now.  Afterwards, I say it is best to just let Maximum Recoil do things his way.

The name is "Maxim", and it isn't "my way"; it has generally been done that way since at least 2006 when Daniel Stern wrote his guide.

If they work, that's an A+.    If not, lesson learned.

It is already working fine for me, not to mention that it is well-known to work for many, many people. Additionally, anyone familiar with electricity can simply look at the diagram and know it will work; at least the relay part of it, given that it is a standard electrical component with a universally known function.

[JB400]

Sorry on my part for getting your name wrong