Tricky darn police

[last426]

I was choosing a topic to judge in a moot court competition and one of the subjects was "Ruse Drug Checkpoints."  I had never heard of such a thing so looked it up.  Now what do you think of this?

Seems in several states cops have been putting up signs on the freeway that a drug checkpoint with drug dogs is coming up ahead and then when the drivers take off on the next exit before the "checkpoint", they use that for probable cause to pull the driver over.  Or they simply watch for the driver to throw stuff out of the car and then nab him for littering, check the litter and double nab.  The intriguing point is that the Supreme Court has ruled drug checkpoints are not legal, so they could not even legally do what they are pretending to do.  Something about this just doesn't seem fair, though it is interesting.  No?  Kim

[NHCharger]

A friend of mine was on grand jury duty of six months. He said the number of cases where people committed crimes for drugs or because of drugs was staggering.
An employee I fired last year for doing coke on the job called me last week looking for tax info. He's cleaned up his act, although he is currently under house arrest and wearing a monitor. He told me after I fired him he became a full time coke dealer to support his habit. He's convinced that 90% of all robberies are made by people looking for drug money or items to sell for drug money. He had a few customers that would go through $2,000. of coke in a 24 hour period, and these people had no jobs.
As far as I'm concerned anyone found with coke or heroin should be executed.

[Orange_Crush]

I was choosing a topic to judge in a moot court competition and one of the subjects was "Ruse Drug Checkpoints."  I had never heard of such a thing so looked it up.  Now what do you think of this?

Seems in several states cops have been putting up signs on the freeway that a drug checkpoint with drug dogs is coming up ahead and then when the drivers take off on the next exit before the "checkpoint", they use that for probable cause to pull the driver over.  Or they simply watch for the driver to throw stuff out of the car and then nab him for littering, check the litter and double nab.  The intriguing point is that the Supreme Court has ruled drug checkpoints are not legal, so they could not even legally do what they are pretending to do.  Something about this just doesn't seem fair, though it is interesting.  No?  Kim

ANother case of treating the symptom while the disease ravages the body.  And yes, completely illegal and unconstitutional..just as much as the "driver's license checkpoints" they use for DUI enforcement...Though I blame the perps for being stupid as much as I do the cops for doing what they're doing. 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I have no problem with that tactic.   Keeps the scum in check and possibly save a life or two in the process.....

[Old Moparz]

I have less & less faith in how the true problem people are "removed" from society. The way I see it, the checkpoint thing, seems to be more of a money making device than actually doing a service to everyone. I've seen the same checkpoint at lunchtime on a regular basis of at least every other month for the last 5 years. The officers stand on the double yellow line & select every 3rd or 4th car to stop & take a look at, or inside.

They look at inspection stickers, seat belts & registration stickers, & then write up tickets like an assembly line. There are always 5 to 6 cars on the shoulder with happy motorists just patiently waiting to get the ticket & be on their way. The way I see it, by nailing the people who work, buy cars, register & insure them, will always keep the municipality's cash flow going.

Arresting a dead beat, unemployed crack head who doesn't have money is just not profitable. These people can be found without any trouble, they just usually aren't pumping any money into the local economy. I'm not anti-police, nor do I have any answers, I'd just rather see the enforcement done where it's actually needed.

[dkn1997]

maybe it's me and I have been watching too much law and order on tv, but I seem to recall that while the police question you about a crime, they are permitted to lie to you about other evidence they have.   it sounds pretty similar to tricking people with the "drug checkpoint" sign. 

if the checkpoints truly are illegal,  then the cops are not setting them up.  They are just tricking people into tipping their hand.  seems the same to me.

I will tell you what is another serious problem, maybe not as quote "bad" as the narcotic problem.  Its alcohol abuse.  The older I get, the more I notice just how many total boozehounds are out there.  I had to fire a guy last year for totalling one of our company vans.  He was totally plastered at noon on a weds.  Then another kid gets a DWI in another truck about a month later.  Granted, this just my little slice of the world, but think about how many people you know who are hitting it (not pussy) regularly? 

Now I'm depressed, I think I need a drink now...

[Todd Wilson]

I was choosing a topic to judge in a moot court competition and one of the subjects was "Ruse Drug Checkpoints."  I had never heard of such a thing so looked it up.  Now what do you think of this?

Seems in several states cops have been putting up signs on the freeway that a drug checkpoint with drug dogs is coming up ahead and then when the drivers take off on the next exit before the "checkpoint", they use that for probable cause to pull the driver over.  Or they simply watch for the driver to throw stuff out of the car and then nab him for littering, check the litter and double nab.  The intriguing point is that the Supreme Court has ruled drug checkpoints are not legal, so they could not even legally do what they are pretending to do.  Something about this just doesn't seem fair, though it is interesting.  No?  Kim

Last summer I noticed those signs on the I-35 on my way to Iowa from Kansas. Saw 2 sets of signs and thought it was BS they were doing it. I never did see a checkpoint anywhere.   I get to Iowa and on I-80 outside of Des Moines they have the same set of signs up except this time theres cops out there pulling folks over and checking their vehicles out. A few highway patrol cars and the standard black cruisers and Chevy Tahoe type of trucks.

Bottom line is cops can do what ever the f*ck they want to do out there on the road. Impound your vehicle and take you to jail. You post your bail (Spend money)  and then go hire a lawyer (spend more money). After spending thousands of dollars you are let off the hook but that thousands of dollars spent to get you off the hook is gone! I'd  like to see a way to recoop your legal costs because of some jackass cop on the side of the road has had a bad day and is being a dickhead with you.

I am interested in hearing how your competition comes out on this one!


Todd

[Shakey]

The easiest way to avoid getting hassled by the fuzz is not to break the law.

The thread could have also been called "Foolish Citizens", depending on how you look at it.

[89MOPAR]

maybe it's me and I have been watching too much law and order on tv, but I seem to recall that while the police question you about a crime, they are permitted to lie to you about other evidence they have.   it sounds pretty similar to tricking people with the "drug checkpoint" sign. 

I suppose I thought that you had to be a "person of interest"  in order to qualify you for that kind of treatment. IE - they have some evidence against you but not as much as they need to make additional charges stick.
Are we "persons of interest " or "suspects" simply for driving down the highway. ??

I also fail to see how pulling off on a normal freway exit is "probable cause" - maybe you have a valid legal reason to want to be on that exit road - such as going to the store or a relatives house.
Now if a guy, slams on his brakes and backs up to the exit, or goes flying across the median to turn around - well thats a bit more obvious....

[Drop Top]

I agree with Shakey. If your car is leagle to drive. Or if your not doing anything wrong. Then what do you have to worry about? So what they choose to pull you over. If there is something wrong and your caught then you should have taken care of it before hand. It probley would have been cheaper in the long run. They (the cops) are doing their jobs. You know the old saying. "If you can't do the time. Don't do the crime."

[73dodge]

So do they actually have a drug check point? Or do thy just post signs saying they have a drug checkpoint  but don't actually have one because they are illegal? That's what it sounds like and then bust the suspicious ones that think there is a CP and bail. What about the people who legitimately pull off the next exit ramp that the cops are sitting at and then get pulled over for a drug check. That can come back and bite them for violating the law against illegal search and seizure.

This sounds like a speed trap where they post a sign behind a tree for a 32 MPH speed limit and then nail people going 35.


I would think that this would come close to violating the illegal search and seizure law. Pulling off at an exit ramp is not illegal and why would it be deemed probable cause. I would think that a good lawyer would be able to shoot that down as reasonable doubt.

[Arthu®]

I'd  like to see a way to recoop your legal costs because of some jackass cop on the side of the road has had a bad day and is being a dickhead with you.

Well there is insurance for that.

Arthur

[89MOPAR]

I agree with Shakey. If your car is leagle to drive. Or if your not doing anything wrong. Then what do you have to worry about? So what they choose to pull you over. If there is something wrong and your caught then you should have taken care of it before hand. It probley would have been cheaper in the long run. They (the cops) are doing their jobs. You know the old saying. "If you can't do the time. Don't do the crime."

So then define the difference if you are walking down the street , shopping with your wife at local stores,minding your own business, and the police force you up against a wall and put you spread -eagle for a pat-down, with no complaint against you.   Would that be wrong ?       Guilty until proven innocent ?

What if someone got your home address and called the police saying "I think something is amiss at DropTops house"  - the dispatcher asks "is there fighting, or smell of dead body, or crack, or is the house  burning ?"  - and the caller says "No , I just think the inside of the house should be looked at" -  then the police come over at 2am, and bust down the door because you fell asleep with the TV on and didn't hear them knocking because you were so tired from work.   IS that OK ??

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I agree with Shakey. If your car is leagle to drive. Or if your not doing anything wrong. Then what do you have to worry about? So what they choose to pull you over. If there is something wrong and your caught then you should have taken care of it before hand. It probley would have been cheaper in the long run. They (the cops) are doing their jobs. You know the old saying. "If you can't do the time. Don't do the crime."

So then define the difference if you are walking down the street , shopping with your wife at local stores,minding your own business, and the police force you up against a wall and put you spread -eagle for a pat-down, with no complaint against you. Would that be wrong ? Guilty until proven innocent ?

What if someone got your home address and called the police saying "I think something is amiss at DropTops house" - the dispatcher asks "is there fighting, or smell of dead body, or crack, or is the house burning ?" - and the caller says "No , I just think the inside of the house should be looked at" - then the police come over at 2am, and bust down the door because you fell asleep with the TV on and didn't hear them knocking because you were so tired from work. IS that OK ??

Apples & oranges......

[Afturhrz]

Dont do drugs, then you dont have to worry about any of it.

[Drop Top]

I agree with 6T9CHGR.... Where did that come from?

[last426]

I am not too sure how I feel about it.  I understand that the newest twist is the same scheme, a freeway sign, saying that a there is a registered gun/weapon checkpoint ahead and then they search the folks who turn around.  I suppose if we get some drugs and weapons off the streets it's a good thing, but it still does not seem fair.  Anyway, this is not the topic that I chose to judge (the arguments were on a Sunday and I wanted Saturday).  Kim 

[MyMopar]

Well I tell you this, I personally am afraid of the police.  Why you ask?  Well over 10 years ago I was working as a driver.  Another driver went to make a p/u in the sticks but the freight was too large for his vehicle.  I headed out to swap van for truck.  After loading up and saying goodbye we were off.  As soon as we pulled out I was lit up. 
Well, apparently a dealership just down the street was broken into and they wanted to check me out.  The van was empty and I told the officer where I was and what I was doing and they could check.  Instead they didn't believe me and took my DL.

This is where the night got fun, apparently there was a Grand Larceny warrant out on me.  They arrested me, towed the company van and I sat waiting transport back to the town w/the warrant.  I KNEW I didn't do anything.  I sat wondering what the hell is going on.  If I was smart enough, I should have refused fingerprinting but they wanted them to check them against the dealership scene. 
Anyway 6 hours later and I'm back to the town w/the warrant.  A detective sits down with me and starts asking questions.
Know hold on for this one - He tells me I'm being arrested for not returning VIDEOS from a rental store I DON'T EVEN GO TO, I didn't even live in this town, I lived 25 minutes away!  I was released in no time.
So what was the deal there?  I was out the impound fee, towing fee and cab fare to go and get the company van back not only to mention trying to explain this to the company. 
Afraid of the police, damn straight, I don't do a single thing wrong and I still get in trouble.  I'm afraid of them because I think they can do whatever they want, plant whatever they want just to get a case. 
I contacted 4 lawyers who said to forget about it.  I was screwed out of my money, nearly lost my job and now in the end have a bad attitude toward police.  I see them coming, I go the other way. 

[Wakko]

I think the drug checkpoint idea is kinda dumb.  Pulling off the highway is not probable cause for a stop and any good lawyer worth his salt should get that thrown out right away.  However, doing a safety or registration checkpoint and while talking to the driver having a drug dog sniff the car...THAT'S fine.

A cop cannot "throw you against the wall".  During a consentual stop (you are FREE TO GO if you're not specifically being investigated for something, just ask!) the cop is allowed to Terry frisk you only.  It's a light exterior pat down for weapons.  Throwing you up against the wall is against your civil rights and is battery.

A cop cannot just kick in your door unless he has a warrant, is in fresh pursuit, believes reasonably that someone's life or health is in iminent danger (fight or heart attack) or if you have a warrant and live there.  I've had people see me coming, walk inside and refuse to answer the door and ya know what I can do? Nothing, I leave and go eat lunch.

A cop cannot write you for 35 in a 32.  There's a five mph blanket/safety margin for improper speedometer readings.  Writing 35 in a 30 is a dick ticket, but still legal.

Yes, there are cops out there that do a bad job and are a disgrace to the badge.  Unfortunately a dirty cop can make an honest man pay. My advice is to not give a cop any reason to stop you or any reason to say "Hmm, this guy is an ass...let's find a reason to put him in jail!"

[Todd Wilson]

I think the drug checkpoint idea is kinda dumb.  Pulling off the highway is not probable cause for a stop and any good lawyer worth his salt should get that thrown out right away.  However, doing a safety or registration checkpoint and while talking to the driver having a drug dog sniff the car...THAT'S fine.

See thats BS right there!  YOU are bending the law by doing that.  There is no need to have a drug dog when doing a safety check or registration check.   You go out with the full intent of looking for drugs and you use the BS to make it legal! So why cant you flex your muscle and use your badge to create problems for some one that didnt do anything wrong. Cops do it all the time. Highway Patrol pulled one of our antique truck club guys over. He had an antique semi truck pulling a tractor. HIS tractor. HP says he is violating DOT and the guy has the laws with him that an antique truck is not for hire and he can haul anything of his own on a trailer behind the antique truck. HP says well I am still writing you a ticket and we'll let the courts decide.   You know what. AFter hundreds of dollars spent and time off from work to attend court he was free of the ticket. But still out the money spent  due to the dickhead cop that doesnt know the laws!


Todd

[Wakko]

Once again you're comparing apples and oranges.   Did the cop dick your friend over?  Yes.  I've seen some shoddy police work where cops didn't know what the hell they were doing and rather than admit it, they just kinda made it up as they went along. 

There's nothing illegal or immoral about having a drug dog sniff a car.  Supreme court ruled that providing you are not detained longer than you would have been detained ANYWAY (i.e. if you get one ticket you can't be expected to sit there for an hour, but 15 minutes is acceptable) it's perfectly legal for the drug dog to sniff the EXTERIOR of your vehicle.  And if he hits, that's PROBABLY CAUSE to go INTO your vehicle.

People smoking weed and crack while driving on the highways scare the hell out of me.  If I can do something to help get those sons of bitches off the highways, I'll do it.  Alcohol is the same...and worse!

[Todd Wilson]

Once again you're comparing apples and oranges.   Did the cop dick your friend over?  Yes.  I've seen some shoddy police work where cops didn't know what the hell they were doing and rather than admit it, they just kinda made it up as they went along. 

There's nothing illegal or immoral about having a drug dog sniff a car.  Supreme court ruled that providing you are not detained longer than you would have been detained ANYWAY (i.e. if you get one ticket you can't be expected to sit there for an hour, but 15 minutes is acceptable) it's perfectly legal for the drug dog to sniff the EXTERIOR of your vehicle.  And if he hits, that's PROBABLY CAUSE to go INTO your vehicle.

People smoking weed and crack while driving on the highways scare the hell out of me.  If I can do something to help get those sons of bitches off the highways, I'll do it.  Alcohol is the same...and worse!

But thats not right. You might as well drag the people out of the car and go inside and start ripping stuff open looking for drugs.  A drug dog cannot read there by not able to determine if the registration and insurance are current and correct.  A drug dog also cannot do a proper safety check and know if tires are bad or a light is out.

You are pure and simple  using the law the wrong way to make a drug bust. That drug dog has NO BUSINESS being at a routine "safety and Reistration" check point!!!!!!! That drug dog is only used in drug busts searching for hidden drugs!  Every person you pull over is guilty of drugs until your dog sniffs the car and walks away!

Its illegal to have a drug check point so you bend the law to do it anyways.


Todd

[bad1032]

Its been upheld by Court of special appeals its legal to have a drug dog at any roadside check point, Our dogs are trained in Drug work and attack work, so that means once he finds your drugs he can bite you on the ass as you try and run, Its the Law live with it, If your a druggie stay home with your dope , don't be on the road smokin and jokin.

[Wakko]

The point is to get the drugs off the street...if the police want to be sneaky in how they do it, so what?  It's proven over and over again to be LEGAL and I have zero moral or ethical problem with it.  Most narcotics are found on accident during interactions based on other reasons.  What are we supposed to do, pull over a car for weed?  Hope that while they're walking down the street a suspect will just let it fall out of their pockets?  We constantly find drugs by stopping someone for a BS taillight out and simply asking to look in the car.  

I'm not really sure what your argument is for...don't you want drugs off the street legally?  

[John_Kunkel]

I have this vision of a bunch of cops sitting around in a bar, consuming vast quantities of a legal drug, bragging about all the "druggies" they busted in their latest ruse.