Machine Shop Etiquette

[MedPhys]

Background:  I'm finally moving from one project to another and have decided to build a stroker motor.  I was indecisive about a 451, or stroke the current 440 in the car.  I stopped by the machine shop and asked the machinist what he would do.  He said for power on pump gas I need cubic inches, so do the 440/512.

Fair enough, they are a very reputable builder,and they built the motor I put in my turboed miata ( 300HP at the wheels  )  I've beat on it at the race track and never had an issue.

He immediately went into the cost $5000 to $17000 depending on what I wanted and the pieces he would put together for the build.  That's fine, but I plan on creating a "value" stroker.  Value should not be confused with cheap.  Collect parts over  time as the deals arrive.

Question  Is there an etiquette for saying "Hey, I want to make this a value build project.  I'll tell you what parts I plan to by, you suggest what changes I should make, and I'll drop them off for assembly/machine work"

Is it appropriate to offer the machine shop the opportunity to get close to the prices of some of the online places where i plan to buy parts?  (440 source, mancini) I'll like supporting local businesses, but I'm not will to spend a couple of extra grand doing it. 

Cylinder heads:  He recommended the edlebrock rpm and we discussed port work.  I reiterated value.  It's not a race motor, and I don't want to pay for that last little bit, which is usually the most expensive to get. He agreed, but I have no idea what flow numbers he is getting.   I can buy a set of CNC ported stealths that should easily propel me into the 600s.  Should I simply ask straight up how much it's going to cost to get 330cfm from the eddys?  If it was close to the ported stealths I would just go local.

[Mopar Nut]

He immediately went into the cost $5000 to $17000 depending on what I wanted and the pieces he would put together for the build. 

For that price, I would buy a 2rd gen crate Hemi.

[cdr]

http://store.440source.com/

[Brightyellow69rtse]

hell 15k you can get a 528 hemi!

[Cooter]

While it's no problem trying to build a 'budget' stroker motor, it all depends on what you want from it as to how much it will cost.

NOTHING is more frustrating than getting the damn thing in the car, beating on it at the local track, only to find out you coulda/woulda/shoulda...

I never go this route. I always go as far as my wallet will allow then I know I did all I could with what I had to spend. Regardless if it means 'doing that last little thing'...WAY too many seem to think that they don't need all that 'extra' stuff...Only to find out when the time comes to show the proof in the puddling, they are ashamed to admit it's a stroker motor, as many have numbers in the 700 HP range now.

I know when I budgeted my own 505 C.I. engine in the Dart almost 18 years ago, Then, it was all I could do to spend $3500.00 on it. Now, it looks like I coulda/woulda/shoulda had ALOT more power than I do, but that's mainly due to aluminum heads coming way down in price. Back then, it wasn't nothing to spend over $5K on a set of aluminum heads. Now, My rods/pistons/heads/ etc. are all outdated junk compared to todays stuff.

Eddy heads are tried and true. Stealth heads are not. I have heard good and bad things about them. I know for the price tag, they cannot be "Cast in the USA" like the Eddy's are. Also, by the time you swap out all the 'junk' parts on the Stealth heads for the 'good' sh*t that the Eddy's already come out the box with, you've spent as much as a set of Eddy's. Also, Eddy offers a "Victor" head which will outflow most aftermarket heads, but require offset rockers.

[ACUDANUT]

hell 15k you can get a 528 hemi!

I agree. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are not spending a ton of money on big heads then I wouldn't waste money on a > 500 inch bottom end. If it can't breath then there is no point.

[MedPhys]

I'm basically following heyoldguy 496 thread in the proven combos.  "value" doesn't mean cheap.  It will be built properly to allow reasonable beating.

I'll be getting a set of victor heads and sending them out of town for port work by a shop very familiar with mopar heads.

My real question was with regard to how do I not offending the machine shop during the build?  Do I even bring up online prices to give them the opportunity to get in the ballpark, or is this just offensive?  Should I just show up with my boxes of parts?

[1974dodgecharger]

he surely did give you a range that anybody can give wow (sarcasticly) 5k to 17k.....I could of told you that also.

You could get a crate motor for that 15k......im sure he is a good builder, but for that price wow.

[cdr]

also http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/   will build you a stoker short block for about 4 grand.

[Cooter]

My real question was with regard to how do I not offending the machine shop during the build?  Do I even bring up online prices to give them the opportunity to get in the ballpark, or is this just offensive?  Should I just show up with my boxes of parts?

There is no way he can compete with a shop that cranks out 100 Strokers/week/year. Simple as that. That is why you go to Wally World and buy your groceries instead of buying a loaf of bread for $6.00 at Mom and pops store.

The days of the Little guy making a living off racing stuff at a machine shop are long gone. too many out there selling what takes him/his staff WAYYY too long to do [Labor] for peanuts. I wish you luck with your internet purchases. Hope they live and you enjoy that stroker for a long time, but no way around NOT offending your machinist. He mostly prolly only does local shop work for daily's anyway.

[1ol72charger4me]

I guess I'll try to answer your actual question. I've dealt with machine shops  for years and have faced this dilemma more than once. Some guys only want your input as far as your name on a check because they are the expert. These guys are usually offended when you question price or suggest parts. They will look at your box of parts and brow beat you to death. The guys I deal with treat me with respect and we work together on projects. It sounds like you have a "one up" with this guy because you are a repeat customer so he should be easier to deal with. More than likely he will tell you that he can't compete with the online prices but sometimes they can sell you the same part that is reboxed under another name for cheaper. Ask him what parts he would put in it if it was his own motor. He should know quality parts as far as metallurgy, fit , finish, etc or he is doing only half his job. Buying your own parts may void any warranty they would give you. I would also emphasize that this is a value build because that's part of the fun factor to you and not because you think he should do it for nothing. People tell me all the time that my repairs to their car ,"Don't have to be as perfect as I usually do.", which means they want my best work but don't want to pay for it. Like my spray gun has a "not so shiny" adjustment or I have a sanding block that does "kinda flat" bodywork for cheaper jobs. Unless they stress  the reason they want to pay less, how else can you take it but to be offended. Machine shops are among the industries that are hard hit by this economy so they should be willing to deal with you or find one that will. Good luck.

[Brightyellow69rtse]

when i did my motor last year i bought all my own parts, i mean everything! i think my machine shop bill was like 2400ish. all they did was the machine work and install the pistons,bearings, freeze plugs for me. aswell as balance everything. i did everything else. he had no problem at all with my buying everything. he still got paid for his labor and i got to save by him not marking parts up.  i had the stealth shipped to him directly and h e checked them out and swapped out the locks. only thing he noticed was that the valves were not  lubed. 

[Troy]

I don't know if there's specific "Machine Shop Etiquette". I can tell you that I dropped an engine off at a recommended Mopar shop around here and yanked the disassembled mess back out of there after a few weeks because the owner wouldn't build what I (the customer) wanted. Got tired of arguing over every detail. I *could* chalk that up to this being a race engine shop and I didn't want a race engine - but he knew that going in and said there was no problem (and there shouldn't have been).

Troy

[MedPhys]

How many of you just have the short block machined and assembled, and then put the rest together at the house?  That's what I did with my last build.  It's a lot of fun that way.

[elacruze]

It's simple, really.

They are a Machine Shop

or

They are an Engine Builder.

If they are an engine builder, they should build it to your specs or find a new builder.
If they are a machine shop, they should machine your parts to suit your purposes and let you assemble it.

In the first case, if someone assembles your engine to your specs and then you don't like it, they have to suffer the reputation of having a crap engine out there-and there is no shortage of people looking to blame anyone but themselves for their POS they hate to drive.

My 505 is built from 440source parts (Eagle, not Scat) and assembled by a local guy with a decent reputation, but he's a hack and I own the engine not because he can't assemble one, but because he can't build to suit owners requirements and he can't fine-tune what he builds. I took the short block as is, refit the Eddy heads to suit my self, and have a tire-roasting perfectly drivable 505 that can get 23mpg.

The point here is that it's hard to find a builder that you can trust to have high quality, but to do it your way. You may end up building it yourself from the shortblock up, anyway.

[General_01]

When I had my stroker built I bought everything myself and brought it to the builder. He had no problem with that. The only things he ordered were the push rods after he measured for length and lifters. He was not comfortable with the lifters I had and wanted to use the brand of lifters he used and trusted.

[MedPhys]

When I had my stroker built I bought everything myself and brought it to the builder. He had no problem with that. The only things he ordered were the push rods after he measured for length and lifters. He was not comfortable with the lifters I had and wanted to use the brand of lifters he used and trusted.

I think that is reasonable.  After all, if i were building an engine for someone else; I would want to ensure that I used parts I knew were going to stay together.