Johnson Lifters

[71green go]

I am trying to source a set of Johnson flat tappit hydraulic lifters for my 440 as my brand new Comp Cam ones are JUNK......

I called Johnson directly and was told they do not want to sell directly.....I did ask for Paul but the guy was unfamiliar with him....

he gave me a distributor in Michigan.."PERFIT CORP"....however they have no stock, and had no idea when thier back order would arrive ...thier price was $170 a set plus shipping

the part number he quoted was 4314R

Does Anyone know where I can source Johnson lifters?

Thanks

Steve

[71green go]

Just read a post from challenger340 about johnson lifters...I tried this number but got an out of office...I will try again Monday!
steve

"Topline Johnson Hylift Lifters, Call "Paul" direct at 1-800-441-1400 and enter extension #609 when prompted."

[RIDELIKEHELL]

Good luck Steve 

[71green go]

Good luck Steve 

thanks.....this engine is kicking my butt, hopefully these lifters will help cure my rough Idle issues!.....and then I will upgrade to the Firecore system as you did

[Musicman]

 

[2Luke2]

I ordered mine from that same thread a couple of weeks ago and it took about 3-4 days to get them. So definitely try back and you will get through. I was a bit lost on what to ask for personally... so I just told him I had a 440 I was stroking out and needed some hydraulic lifters. He took care of the rest.

[71green go]

Got through today also ! 
Great pricing compared to speed shops in Canada...We get ripped off like crazy!

16 lifters were $6.23 a pices for a total of $99...plus $30 shipping via fed ex...and tax..total of $142 ..

In comparison I paid $210 plus tax for a total of $237 for JUNK comp cam ones......which are free to whoever wants them

Paul was great and to the point..... again for anyone needing lifters call Johnson at 1800 441 1400 ext 609 and ask for Paul!...

[68CoronetRT]

I'm going to save this thread off because my Lunati lifters are noisy and are starting to really bug me. I might just pony up and buy these.

Thanks for the follow up and phone number!

[71green go]

Ok...Got My New Johnson Lifters today....a bit concerned as I read NACHOS thread on lifter issues from Johnson...here are my findings and concerns...

First of all their website says MADE IN AMERICA....However the paperwork that I received today through customs states country of Manufacture "TW" where is TW Taiwan??...there are no marks on box or lifter...
UPDATE>>>Just googled this and yes TAIWAN....NOT made in USA as stated on their website......now that is false advertising..
http://www.wathomas.com/AboutUs.aspx

All of the lifters rattle Like Nachos did before install.....no Oil in them I guess?......I installed today as is assuming they oil and pump up quickly?....I did use Comp cam moly break in lube...lots of it!...

the other thing is there is no holes in the plunger like on my comp cam ones......nor in the ones Nacho had posted pics of..

the Johnson oil groove is thinner and higher then my comp cam ones.....and the comps have another groove at top of lifter...

The Johnsons are slightly taller overall ....

Pictures below..







Thoughts please

[firefighter3931]

There's no need for a hole in the plunger because you aren't pushrod oiling the rocker arm adjusters. I don't see why Comp would have installed that type of plunger in a hyd lifter. You normally see those holes with solid lifter cams that run hollow pushrods to oil the rocker arm adjusters. 

As long as the oil band is not exposed at full lobe lift you will maintain good oil pressure. You could check this before setting preload with just the lifter sitting in the lifter bore ; rotate the cam so the lifter is sitting on the peak of the lobe and make sure the oil band is below the top of the lifter bore. If so, you're good to go 

Wierd that they're made offshore 


Ron

[71green go]

thanks Ron......So I do not need to fill with oil before install?.....they will pump up once running?

[68CoronetRT]

thanks Ron......So I do not need to fill with oil before install?.....they will pump up once running?

That's what I did! But I also pre - oiled the motor for initial start up. So maybe if did prime the lifters?

[firefighter3931]

thanks Ron......So I do not need to fill with oil before install?.....they will pump up once running?

I have never submerged the lifters in oil prior to the initial fireup. Once you have your pre-load set just dump some oil on the top of the lifters and oil will trickle down inside. This just allows them to pump up faster on the initial fire-up. 


Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

or prime the engine with a drill and the hex rod...

[Challenger340]

Don't sweat the paperwork, the Johnson Lifters are made in the U.S.A. by a guy by the name of Dave Popp, who works as the foreman in the plant.
I dunno whats with the paperwork, says the same thing on mine every time I order which is fairly regularily....I even phoned and questioned the same thing.
all I know...
Is when I need something "special" made up like .0005" Lifters bodies, or a coupla .0007" oversize Bodies for blocks with worn bores(saves bushing the block), I just phone Dave and he whips 'em up for me.
No way some goofball in Taiwan is doing THAT and having them at my door 4 days later ?
Phone Dave yourself...

[cdr]

Don't sweat the paperwork, the Johnson Lifters are made in the U.S.A. by a guy by the name of Dave Popp, who works as the foreman in the plant.
I dunno whats with the paperwork, says the same thing on mine every time I order which is fairly regularily....I even phoned and questioned the same thing.
all I know...
Is when I need something "special" made up like .0005" Lifters bodies, or a coupla .0007" oversize Bodies for blocks with worn bores(saves bushing the block), I just phone Dave and he whips 'em up for me.
No way some goofball in Taiwan is doing THAT and having them at my door 4 days later ?
Phone Dave yourself...

that is good to hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[71green go]

I have emailed Johnson twice in last few days to get clarification on Country of Origin...just to see...
So far no response from sales and Marketing
Steve

[71green go]

OK...seems to be something VERY odd going on here..two very different companies...

Topline Johnson Hylift Lifters which is where I bought mine from

These are Not JOHNSON lifters from this website
http://www.johnsonlifters.com/ContactUs.aspx
these ones are Made in The USA...I just spoke to the president of the company who did not have (of Course) good things to say about Topline Johnson...and he guarentees his for Life ...and they cost twice as Much as the Topline ones

The ones from topline Johnson Hylift lifters are offshore manufactured.(why would any company state country of Origin as Taiwan as Not true??).....I googled it and came up with many hits on them.....they apparently do some custom manufacturing in us but castings and what not are offshore...I guess thats why they cost $99 a set....the other Johnson ones are $200 set
Apparently Topline supplied the Comp Cam ones I had that failed already...and they make melling ones

here is from AMC forum  
http://theamcforum.com/forum/johnson-lifters_topic41348.html

Now I am not doing anything but trying to find whats the deal lol......I am not defending either company as I know squat about lifters just was trying to buy North American...But I wish I had bought from Johnson Lifters...

Interesting that there are two companies in the USA making lifters called Johnson..

[Challenger340]

here's a portion of the newspaper article, it should be read in it's entirety here
http://theamcforum.com/forum/johnson-lifters_topic41348.html

All I know is I call DAVE POPP in Muskegon Michigan, he MAKES CUSTOM whatever I need, it's here in 4 days, no more Tics, No more bleed downs, good product, and same Lifter, same part number # HL2011,  that we used to order back in the 70's.....
and,
NO, they are definitely NOT the same as the junk CompCams, Lunati and others box.


A clip;
The effect on Hy-Lift has been severe, said Dave Popp, the man who succeeded Hicks as plant manager after Hicks was fired in August 2007. "We would like to expand, but it's been an uphill battle," Popp said in an interview earlier this year.

Popp described how he began to unravel the scheme after coming to Muskegon to take over Hy-Lift. He said Toplift hired him "to hopefully get this company profitable. They had problems getting a profit out of this company and didn't understand why. They just thought (Hicks) couldn't manage the company correctly."

Popp said he initially was hired to move operations to Florida, site of the firm's other plant, but persuaded the owners to give the Muskegon operation a chance "because this place had potential."

Going over paperwork, Popp noticed lots of orders from a new company he had never heard of, North American Innovations, based in Canton. He also learned of another mystery: Disgruntled employees were complaining that Hicks had shipped newly rebuilt manufacturing equipment out of Muskegon, supposedly to Florida at the direction of the owners — but no equipment was showing up in Florida.

Intrigued about the unknown Canton company, one weekend Popp drove to the listed address. He said it turned out to be a warehouse. Popp said he looked through a small window, and there was "our furniture. It still had Hy-Lift name tags on it.




In 2004, Hylift-Johnson Lifters was purchased as a division of TopLine Automotive Engineering. The previous Hylift O.E. lines that were in Zeeland, MI have now been relocated to the Muskegon plant. These high quality flat mechanical tappets, lash adjusters, buckets and encapsulated hydraulic roller lifters are being produced by the original Hylift machines and team. The same people that brought you "The Beautiful Lifter" are back manufacturing with precision and a dedication to quality that has not been seen in the lifter business for quite a few years. We feel the real value is not in the equipment or the plant but with the employees who have over 600 years of Hylift experience. Topline Hylift Johnson will continue its historical way of going to market by traditional means of distribution through a select group of customers.

[Cooter]

Good to know Challenger340. All I know is if they's as good as you say, then, they should sell themselves once everybody's tired of rattles.


I know who I'm buying mine from now on....

[Challenger340]

This is such a SAD state of affairs it makes me wanna PUKE !
There really is no way to tell these Days..... just "who".... is boxing "what" parts ....on a Yearly / Monthly / Daily basis anymore ?

As a Shop owner....It's getting Fawking PATHETIC...the Manufacturer lying going on...and if it's any statement at all of the current plight of North American Suppliers...lord help us all in trying to access stuff that actually DOES what it's supposed to in our older Engines ?

2 years ago at my Shop...we ran into a spat of CRAPPY Hydraulic Lifters on Engines we were building for Customers.

We DYNO every Engine before it leaves...in the Customers presence, to their satisfaction..NO EXCEPTIONS...so this was a great source of consternation and embarrassment for us...as well as expensive on our Nickel...to have to repair and re-DYNO a bunch of "Ticky" Engines.
So here's the Story;
I started an investigation as to WHY obviously, these TICS and higher rpm instabilities were occurring, as well as to make damn sure I was satisfied, prior to proceeding in repairing these TICKY Engines for my Customers.
When you don't know "why" something isn't working...the best method I've found is to go back to what DOES WORK and go from there...
So,
I dug out a vintage Box of old Mopar "Direct Connection" Hydraulic Lifters sitting all Dusty on my parts shelf... and began comparing them to the newly removed faulty lifters from the 3 " Ticky" Engines we'd just Dyno'd.
The Faulty Lifters were VASTLY different Internally from the old DC Lifters which never gave us a problem.
I then began my hunt through my E.R.I. Buyers Group to locate just " who" was still making the old Mopar DC Lifter I was using as my control....
which...
turned out to be the Topline Hylift Johnson HL2011 part #, as seen on the LEFT in the following photos being compared against the defective LUNATI and CompCams lifters removed from our "Ticky" Engines.

Our Investigation and Comparisons, as seen in the following photos from 2 years ago, indicated to us that our problem was in the Lifter Internal Valving, in that BOTH the LUNATI and the CompCams lifters being IDENTICAL CRAPPY, utilized a very small orifice(Force X Area) and Spring/Ball system requiring excessive force to open, that bled down repeatedly at rpm, and failed to re-pump back at Idle. These BAD lifters are seen on the right in the Photos.

The Lifter on the LEFT in the photos from 2 years ago....that repaired our problems on the DYNO...on all 3 Engines....and was IDENTICAL to our old Mopar DC vintage Lifter was the Hylift Johnson HL2011, which employs a far bigger internal orifice, and "wafer" type valving system, which require LESS force to open with Oil pressure and maintain adequate valvetrain contact.

All I am saying is this.....nowadays...not knowing who's putting "what", in "whatever" Box today...or on any given day...from ANY Supplier...dis-assemble whatever Lifter you receive....and LOOK for the Lifter with the Valving System on the LEFT in the following Photos
IMO,
DO NOT use anything on the right in the Photos which BOTH the Comp & LUNATI were the IDENTICAL garbage Lifter

My personal belief... is that the GOOD Lifter(on left in photos)it is still available from Hylift Johnson, but I have not ordered any recently from them....as I am still using up the stock I ordered 2 years back(2 flats of 288 Lifters)..... when I was happy to have found them.(we don't do many Flat Tappet Lifter Engines)
Albeit,
I HAVE done "Custom" Lifter Sizing orders from Hylift over the past 2 years, mainly for worn blocks with sloppy Lifter Bores as a cheaper alternative to " Bushing" the Bores, and they have ALL been perfect as well with absolutely No Problems !!

without further adieu ....here's the photos from 2 years ago...IMO....look for the Lifter with the Internal Valving on the LEFT, large internal orifice/wafer system/low opening pressure, as good to go

[71green go]

Thanks Bob for all your work!....
the ones Paul recommended to me for my car was the Hylift Johnson B-0976 part number.....the ones you show are the 2011's...they also have a 2011R (race lifter)...
Mine are installed now and should be firing up engine sometime this weekend...I hope all goes well....mine have a single oil groove higher up then on the 2011's....the 2011;s look externally like the comp cam ones I had tried..

the comp cam ones did not pump up...at least half went tck tck tck no matter how many times I reset them and set preload...

I will post how I make out with the new ones 

steve

[Musicman]

It would be kind of cool to take apart a few more of the different manufacturers offereings... What I mean is, Lunati has 3 types of flat tappet hyd lifters... the cheap "Plain Jane" OEM replacement style lifter seen in the images above yes, but they also sell their Micro-Trol lifter, and a Race version of some sort. I wonder what they look like on the inside, if they are any better, or more of the same for more money? I know Comp sells something like 4 different versions as well, each coming at an increased cost.

[Challenger340]

It's been 2 years now...I will phone Lunati and see if they now have in stock a BETTER Hydraulic Lifter for the BB Mopar application.

2 years ago when I pushed on the Phone with Lunati as to the forever N/A status of the supposedly better "Micro-Trol" Lifter for the BB Mopars, when pushed...they actually admitted to me over the phone that no such animal exists, or ever did exist in their stock up until then for the Mopar application, even though the part # was shown.
Then,
about a year ago, I managed to access the(supposedly by me anyways).... "new"... Micro-Trol 71977, non "PR" Lifter, at another shop which I managed to inspect.
It appeared indeed to be the same Lifter for internal valving as the regular 71977"PR" version...the biggest difference I saw was merely a heavier, more positive top snap ring to prevent it popping apart.
No, I did not Dyno test that version, by that time I already had a strong aversion to THAT internal Valving system being present, and a heavier snap ring failed to ignite any confidence in me...sorta like curing a pop-apart problem that doesn't exist, as that Lifter valving System doesn't maintain any power on the Dyno @ higher rpm anyways ?
That's part of my point....
How many guys are out there..... rev'ing the snot outa their BB Mopar Engines with these Lifters....trying to tune out power losses @ rpm on the street...NO Dyno...when on the Dyno I have seen the power start dropping off after 4500 rpm...time and again with these Lifters compared to the Hylifts ??

Makes no sense to me...just put a heavier snap ring to stand up the Valvetrain break-down n the Micro-Trol version vrs the same "PR" version being the only difference betwenn the 2 I could see....instead of curing the Internal Valving PROBLEM on both lifters.
Treating the SYMPTOM...not the PROBLEM, is IMO absolutely stupid ?

I'm serious here !!
I've tried everything....less preload...more preload...Oil Viscosities...additives...on Multiple Engines on Multiple Dyno Sessions...NADA !
But the worst example on the Dyno...and most damning evidence.....was simply taking out a set opf those Lifters on the Dyno in utter frustration....no other changes...dropped in the Hylifts...quick re-run in for the cam....then PRESTO...stable on the Dyno with BIG POWER increase right through 5700 rpm !
Prior to that one...on a different Engine...the only "cure" on the Dyno was to tighten the preload down to the point of the lifter running as a "Solid" Tappet, which I eventually swapped those Lifters for SOLID versions anyways.... to just run on the Hydraulic Cam with the SOLID Lifters @ very tight lash.
That was a brackets Engine so no big deal.


update;
just of the phone with Billy at Lunati....I dunno if he remembers talking with me 2 years ago...talked mostly with Steve my rep back then
anyways, limited with Billy.
The problem it seems....is they basically are NOT hearing "enough" about problems with those Lifters.

NOT that they are NOT hearing it occasionally...they are...but in low numbers, so no need felt on their end to address the problem.
Again,
BB Mopar Hydraulic Flat tappet Builds are a low numerical application in the overall scheme of things...and shrinking yearly.
and like I said...of those low numbers...
how many guys out there actually build....then DYNO their BB Mopar Engines to "see" the "valvetrain" rpm power break-down ? NOT MANY !
How many just attempt, or chalk it up to Carb & Tuning issues ? Probably LOTS !
How many don't notice.... they really ARE down on power above 4500 rpm ? Think that's all there is...Probably even MORE !
Think about it...
If only the WORST ones that actually go Ticky....by the time they play with Rockers...oils...then kill a lobe...How many of those would ever actually pick up the Phone and inquire ?
or.... know HOW to answer when questioned by the Tech Guy about other potential causes....their Valve Spring Rates ?...Seat Pressures ? ...Valvetrain Geometries ? Lifter to Bore Clearances ? yada...yada...
So,
The problem will remain unremedied it seems ?

The GOOD NEWS from my phonecall with Billy at LUNATI, is that he still is, always was, and probably always will be a REAL GUY, at a REAL COMPANY like LUNATI, surrounded in a world of Hot Rod Flakes.
I sincerely wish there were more like him at other Cam Companies.
For clarification here...IMO,....LUNATI do in fact have some of the BEST CAM PROFILES ever designed for the BB Mopars, and some of the BEST People like BILLY answering the phones
My problem is strictly with the Lifters....
which Billy being the consummate professional he is.....will take my concerns higher in LUNATI to see if a better Lifter can be accessed and included for sale in the Catalog, but no guarantees of action.
I've even offered my Dynomometer testing data....we will see what happens ?

It scares me to think....just how much BETTER Customers would find their LUNATI Camshaft profiles in operation, with BETTER LIFTERS supplied...IMO, they would unleash their already good Cam profiles with better lifters....into Real HITTERS, and absolutely corner the market in Mopars..albeit as small as it is.

Done my rant...  

[Musicman]

It's been 2 years now...I will phone Lunati and see if they now have in stock a better Hydraulic Lifter for the BB Mopar application.

2 years ago when I pushed on the Phone with Lunati as to the forever N/A status of the supposedly better "Micro-Trol" Lifter for the BB Mopars, when pushed...he actually admitted no such animal exists, or ever did exist in their stock for the Mopar application, even though the part # was shown.

Well, I can tell you that they do indeed exist... in fact; I have a set in one of my engines. I have that particular engine partially taken down at the moment; maybe I'll pop one out and dissect it.