what do I need to know about a 440 HP rebuild?

[Charger72SE]

well last week I posted that I thought the water heater went and there was also some god-aweful noises under the hood.  Today a Mopar friend who is a mechanic came over and after turning over the car, said that it's a busted rod and/or other internal stuff.     That water pump is a sloppy, but that's now the least of my problems.

so..... I have a stock, numbers matching SE with 440HP and want to keep the engine pretty much stock.  I'm NOT a gearhead and wouldn't know where to start other than some stuff I've read.  I'd like to goose the HP up at bit since by 1972 the 440 was around 285HP at the wheels.  I'd also like to do the seals so I can burn pump gas.

- what things need to be done?
- what parts would you replace & what new parts would you recommend?
- what should I look out for?
- what range of cost am I looking at
- what else do I need to know?

I think I'll go have a beer! 

[Charger72SE]

I put up a post last weekend that I thought my water pump blew and that there were some god-awful noises from under the hood.  Well the pump went bad all right, but a rod also went!!  A friend who is a Mopar mechnic came over today and after we started up the engine he had me kill it right away.   

so my 440 HP needs a rebuild and I know very little about what needs to be done (just have read a little).  My SE is a numbers matching car so I want to keep it near stock.  Maybe goose up the HP a bit since by 1972 the HP rating was 285 at the wheels, and have it be able to run on pump gas without putting lead additive in.  The tranny is a 727 Slap Stick and my SE is basically a very nice driver.  I'm not going to race it, just blow down the Wisconsin country roads.   I want to do this once so it's good for another 35 years

I'm looking for suggestions on
- what generally needs to be replaced during a rebuild
- what pistons, cam, etc should I use
- should I keep the piston rods if they aren't broke (if it's a push rod that is busted)
- I was going to add a high volume oil pump for insurance
- what price range is a rebuild?
- what questions or directions should I give the shop (what do I need to make sure gets done?)
- what else do I need to worry about

I know this is pretty general stuff, but this is my first project and while I'm handy, I'm not a drivetrain mechanic.

thanks for your help - looks like the driving season is over for this year   

[Chryco Psycho]

you need to pull the pan & have a look to see What actual damage if any is really there then we can better assess what needs to be done

[Charger72SE]

hi Chryco Psycho - glad you're here at the new site!  you've been helping me over the last 2 years and it looks like this will be a bigger problem.  I'm assuming I should be doing this checking with the engine still in or should I be pulling the engine & tranny out first?  If I'm leaving the block in, can I pull the oil pan out as things are?  It seems tight around the cross member.   If I need to jack up the block, let me know how to do it.

thanks much, I've never done any major surgery!!

sorry all, about the 2 posts, but I didn't know my first one was moved to this section

[Chryco Psycho]

if you disconnect the center link there should be enough room to slide to oil pan out without moving the engine at all unless you have a bad mount

[Charger72SE]

I pulled off the valves covers last night and the 2nd Push Rod from the rear on the passenger side (#8) has a good 3/8" slop both up and down and back and forth. 

I guy told me that if a piston rod was busted, the engine wouldn't turn over (my 440 does turn over)  Is this true?

so tomorrow I was going to drop the oil pan and see what's up.  If it is just a bad push rod, does the engine need to be pulled to replace them?

[Chryco Psycho]

No , if the pushrod was loose the cam could have a flat lobe , try pulling the lifter out of the hole where the pushrod was loose see fi the bottom is damaged , you probably do not need to go a lot further into the engine & it can be fixed without pulling the engine out

you would have a lot more very obvious damage if a con rod broke off

[Charger72SE]

Hi Chryco,

today I removed the valve train where the push rod was loose at #8 piston
- the push rod was straight
- there wasn't any metal shavings or pieces anywhere on the cylinder head
- there must be some sort of tool to reach the lifter - I don't have anything that can reach it that far and pull it out.  Is there a tool or some trick to grab it?

I also drained the oil - it was the blackest color I have ever seen.  Is that because of the engine overheating which lead to this?
- I poured the oil through a filter to catch any debris.  All that was there was some non-metal fragments (see picture)

I also found some small fragments - also non-metallic - on the top of the driver's cyllinder head at the back (nearest to driver) 

Any ideas where these fragments could be from?

I took some pictures of the of the fragments and valve train, let me know what you think.

Should I still drop the oil pan to see if anything is there? 

thanks for your guidance on what to do next!

[Chryco Psycho]

possibly pieces of shreaded valve seals
get a strong telescoping magnet to pull the lifter out

[Charger72SE]

I'll get the magnet tomorrow and pull the lifter

should I still drop the oil pan? 

[IBsmokin]

 

[Chryco Psycho]

I'll get the magnet tomorrow and pull the lifter

should I still drop the oil pan?  

not until you fix the problem you have found

[Charger72SE]

yep, the lifter is bad - the internal spring must be busted because the top rod seat is laying down in the cylinder.  It comes up when I grap it with the magnet. (see pic)

also, the bottom of the lifter is completely flat - there is no rocking when I stand it on end on a flat surface.

the rod isn't bent at all

what do you prescribe, Dr. Chryco?

thanks again!

[Chryco Psycho]

if the cam lobe & the bottom of the lifter is OK the lifter just failed & collapsed , replace the lifter & go

[Charger72SE]

the bottom of the lifter was completely flat - they are supposed to have a rounded bottom, so I guess it is bad.  Should I check all of the lifters?

how do you check the cam lobe without removing the cam?

will bad lifters cause a lot of ugly noises?

[andy74]

yep

[Charger72SE]

well, I wanted to see the bottom end and took off the oil pan and windage tray - there are a lot of metal shavings in the pan and on the tray (see pics)  2 guys who have rebuilt engines think it's probably metal from a bearing.

I'm going to shake each piston rod to see where the slop is. The rods are all intact and seemed centered under the piston head.  The bottom of the oil pan had a lot of silvery sludge as well and smelled like something cooked in there.  The oil was the blackest I've seen.

what do you guys think?

[Chryco Psycho]

lifters should be flat on the bottom so I think you are OK there , the debris in the pan looks like a brg to me , I think you have bigger proiblems 

[cudaken]

 72 SE, boy that does not look good. But at this point drop in a new lifter and see what it sounds like than yank if sounds bad. There is a off side changes the 440 is still good, but I would not hold my breath.

Second thought, with the pan off, pull the rod caps and see what you have left of bearings. No reason at this point throwing a rod and really hurting a number matching block.

                    Cuda Ken

[Charger72SE]

yeah Cuda Ken, I'm taking caution on this - I don't want to wreck the original 440.  Good idea to check the rod bearings and rods.  Hopefully it's only a bearing and no major parts are busted.  I'll check out the lower end this week while the engine is still in the car and let you guys know what I see.

if it's a rebuild for sure that's needed I could use suggestions on replacement parts

[SeattleCharger]

 

[SeattleCharger]

     Since you are talking about rebuilding a 440 here, my motor is disassembled, got it that way when I bought my car and picked up motor later at a machine shop where the guy had taken the 440.     Anyways, I didn't get the carb and might be missing the pully wheels in photo, can I buy these somewhere like a car parts store?   or do I have to look at junkyards?        I saw this photo in the parts for sale section tonight, and realized I don't think I have these pully wheels.  

[cudaken]

 Not beeing a AC guy, I think the top you are miss part of the clutch, center miss fan and bottom nothing I can see.  See if I can post a pic of a 68, should be pretty cloes to the same.

                                     Cuda Ken

Sorry could not find it.

[SeattleCharger]

  Oh ya, the top one now I realize is the ac, don't have that anyways.  I am getting the motor rebuilt and have to buy cam, pistons, carb, and prob. a bunch of small things here and there, it is those I am wondering where to get, I am sure I will need misc. nuts and bolts and brackets, and maybe the pully wheels, was asking if these parts have to be found at a junkyard or off an old motor or can you buy this stuff at car parts stores. 

[Chryco Psycho]

the pulleys sets can be ordered from Year one & other suppliers
Summit should have most of the internal engine prts you will need

[Charger72SE]

today I check all the piston rods - the rod bearing on piston #4 is toast.  Lots of slop on the crank.  all the other rods are tight & seem fine.

so, I'm back to my original question - what do I need to know about a 440 rebuild?

My SE is a numbers matching car so I want to keep it near stock and kick up the HP a bit.  It's a driver so I won't be racing it.

I'm looking for suggestions on
- what pistons, cam, etc should I use
- should I keep the piston rods if they aren't bent
- I was going to add a high volume oil pump for insurance
- should I buy the parts or let the rebuilder buy them?
- what price range is a rebuild?

I talked to a shop yesterday, and he said to plan on replacing the crankshaft because it is probably bent.   I thought the steel forged crank in the 440 HP is pretty tough.  He quoted me $2500-$3000 - is that reasonable?

[SeattleCharger]

I got quoted 3500 for my 440 in Kirkland, Washington, balanced.

[Charger72SE]

SeattleChargerDog - what parts did that include? cam, all bearings, pistons, crank?

[SeattleCharger]

Not sure about the crank, I think mine is ok, but everything else.  New everything.

[SeattleCharger]

   What is the story on "Spyder" or "Jasper" kit/crate engines?   Some guy was telling me about them but it sounded too good to be true, first he was talking about spyder, then he said he made a mistake and meant jasper, and was saying the a rebuilt balance complete 440 could be bought by a mechanic with a mechanic discount for a really low price, think he said six or seven hundred bucks, anyways, I never heard of this, sounds too good to be true

[Charger72SE]

well after spending some time pulling the engine and taking a look inside, my problem is a spun bearing on #4 piston rod.  It really did a job on the crankshaft - see picture of rod journal where #3 and #4 piston rods were on the crank and picture of main cap #3.  I put a piece of white paper behind the crank so the damage would show up more clearly.

fortunately, everything else seems in good shape - the piston rod seems ok, all the cylinders were smooth with no ruts or gouges, the rest of the piston rods were solid on the crank, the crank under the main caps on either side of #4 piston rod had no blue or black color and bearings were intact.

I found a guy for the rebuild who has done good engine work for other Charger owners around Milwaukee.  He's a one man shop but spent an hour with me in 2 get togethers and I guess I trust him.

I was going to get the most all the parts from 440 Source - they have quality stuff (Klevite bearings, Melling high volumr oil pump, Ross pistons, Childs & Alberts rings and new cranks if needed (probably)

so my question is what should I do to increase the HP a bit.  My 72 is a driver (no racing) and since it's numbers matching, I want to keep it stock.  The compression is 8.2:1 and rated at 290 hp.  Do domed pistons makes sense?  Can a cam add some hp?  I only want to replace what is needed and not replace all the internals.

let mer know what you think on increasing hp

thanks!!

[cudaken]

 OK, what do you mean by a little more HP? Last time I answer this kind of question I posted all the part number to up grade a 383 2 barrrel to a little over stock 383 HP. Then I was ran over by all the other answers on how to make 425 HP.

If you are looking for around 30 HP this answer will do it. Want 130 HP more it wont.

Speed Pro Pistons L2355F 440 6 pack pistons, with steel head gaskets right at 10 to 1

MP intake part number P4529118 when painted will pass for stock and worth about 5 to 10 Hp I think a 72 still had a square bore carb and not a thermaquad. If Thermaquad you would need a adapter

MAKE SURE THE 440 IS CHECKED FOR BLUE PRINTED DECK HEIGHT!!!! That effect everything from valve lift, compression ratio and port alignment. Maw Mopar was awful about this. If your was off badly like most B-engines are it alone could give you 10 to 40 HP.

Have your head's and intake matched ported as well.

The above will wake your 440 up, but still drive and idle like a stocker. Engine will be stronger Idle all the way to stock shift point.

Have the distributor checked out and have a fast advanves kit installed. Want total advances to be 38 degress at 2000 RPM's.

                            Cuda Ken

[Charger72SE]

thanks Cuda Ken,

yep, this is what I'm looking for - wake her up a bit, keep the stock look, and still burn pump gas

any suggestions for the cam?

Paul

[cudaken]

 Paul, if all you are looking for is around 30 HP the stock HP cam is fine. It is a good all round cam for a stock HP Big Block. Fresh one would not be a bad idea. If you want more HP or driffrent cam I need details on your Charger. I know it has a 727, saw the felx plate but gears is something I would need to know about as well.

Cheap seat of the paint's HP feel is a 74 400 Police converter, has a stall of around 2400 RPM's and I have one in my 69 Charger. Made the car feel 500 pounds lighter. With yours being a 72 it should be a cast crank, but I have seen steel crank 72's as well. Some with 440-6 pack rods yet. If your's is steel you will need to knock off the counter weight used for the cast crank 400. If your is cast it is a bolt in.

What ever you do, make sure the DECK HEIGHT IS BLUE PRINTED. Big reason Big Block's can be easy road kill.

                                 Cuda Ken

[cudaken]

 Another Cheap HP trick is windage tray P4120998 worth 5 HP at 5000 RPM's if you dont have one all ready. Never opened up a stock 72 440 Hp engine.

74 AC water pump, has small vains and worth 5 HP as well at 5000 RPM's.

Have a clutch fan? If not another free 5 HP.

Have them check the ware on your stock cam. Come to think of it, is your 440 a HP 440? If it is have them check the cam for ware. If it is still good reuse it for now. You did say you want to reuse as much as you could right?

With the pistons I listed you can get wilder later with a hotter cam.

Little free stuff add's up and get better MPG as well. Free means it will not use more gas not the cost for the part.

                                 Cuda Ken

[Charger72SE]

yep, I have a 440 HP engine, so it does have the forged crank, but I think it's toast anyway (see pic)

the full drive train is 440 HP, 727 slap stick auto and 8 3/4 rear end with 3.23 gears.  I do have a windage tray and I think clutch fan.

I was going to replace the cam and lifters as long as the engine is apart.

what is the deck height suppose to be?  he is going to mill the bottoms of the cylinder head and top of the block.

thanks much!

[cudaken]

 Sorry Paul I dodn't know what the speck is off the top of my head. Your shop should have it. It is the distances from the bottom of the bore to the top of it. Most deck are taller than what the should be, some the deck's form left to right will not be the same. If the block is only .010 taller than they should be that will take .0150 of the valve lift (Rocker's are 1.5 ratio) that would take a 484 valve fit down to 469 lift. I have seen them as high as .025.

It will also lower the compression as well.

Make sure he understands you want the deck height Blue Printed not just straight.

If you want a hotter cam where do you want the power, bottom end, or top end?

                          Cuda Ken

[Chryco Psycho]

I use Engle Hyd cams , they are great ot deal with & the cams work !!

[cudaken]

 Hey Neil great to see you on line again I was having fun doing your job.

Paul, listen to Neil, he still teaches me. I have never ran the Engle cams. I do know that split duration helps bottom and mide range. That is why the 440 HP is ground that way.

Like I said, looking for 30 HP what I have listed will do it and them some.


                        Cuda Ken

[Charger72SE]

yep, Chryco has helped me a lot over the last 2+ years - I'll check out the Engle cams

my rebuilder said he would have the 440 dismantled by tomorrow & to give him a call - we'll see what is all needed to be done!

[Charger72SE]

well, it's been a long month, but my 440 should be done this Friday!

it ends up that the crank was trashed from the spun piston rod bearing and if I wouldn't have shut her down when I did, a couple main bearings would have gone as well.

the rebuild will have a new stock 3.75" crank, Clevite bearings all around, timing chain, water pump, high volume oil pump & some misc parts from 440source
Melling 448/472 cam and lifters
SpeedPro 2355F 30 over pistons & moly rings and Mopar Performance SS valves

compression will go from 8.2 to 9.4
the guy doing my engine confirmed that the mileage was 48K and not 148K
rebuilder says this will be a strong street car following my request to keep the numbers matching Charger "stock but stout"

here are some pics of the block after the boiling & dip and 30 over boring

I'll post more pics when it is done

[Chryco Psycho]

Awesome !!
be careful using a high Volume oil pump with a stock pan , 440 s do not have oiling problems , a high pressure stock volume pump would be my choice

[SeattleCharger]

  Is that compression still good for pump gas?   Could you say maybe how much horsepower that might make with the .30 over and that cam?  What carb and intake are you going to use?   I am still trying to figure how I am going to do my 440.  Will be bored .30 over also. 
Thanks,
Nate

[Charger72SE]

Hi Neal - everyone I talked to told me to go with the high volume oil pump vs the high pressure one.   The 72 440 HP came with a 7 qt capacity, baffled oil pan, so it should keep up with the high volume oil pump

SeattleChargerDog - Neal knows better than me, but I think you can go with pump gas to 10 compression.    I'm using the original intake manifold and Holley 4160 4 bbl carb that was rebuilt 2 years ago.

I have no idea on the horse power, maybe someone can take a guess at it.

[Charger72SE]

here's a few pics of the balancing & cylinder honing - he said the job should be done this week

after reding the horro story from cudaken, is there anything I should be looking out for?  the good news is I can come to the shop any time and see how things are going

[firefighter3931]

after reding the horro story from cudaken, is there anything I should be looking out for?  

Ask for a spec sheet on the bearing clearances (main/rod), ring end gaps, crank runout and the piston to cylinder wall clearances. This will at least guarantee that those things have been checked and verified by the assembler.  

Ron

[cudaken]

 

That is one of the mistakes I made, I trusted the shops that did mine. $7,000.00 and 90 miles later 440 is hanging on the stand again.


                                    Ken