Which One of These Water Pumps Should I Be Using??

[Moparman01]

I'm changing out my aluminum after market water pump housing (and the pump as well) for an OEM cast iron stock unit on my 440 in the General, but i have 2 very different water pumps on hand. Which one should i use?? The pump in the left was in the car, the pump on the right was on the housing a buddy of mine gave me off a 383. Man i have no idea which one of these is the right choice, i've struggled with this car over heating for a years and years now, i gotta get it right!! The housing is standard with the inlet on the driver side, same as all the BB cars i have. Here's a couple pics...

[bakerhillpins]

According to the 69 FSM the pump for a 440 is the following read as diameter-blades:

4.38"-8 standard
3.50"-6 A/C

[bakerhillpins]

69 parts manual has the housing numbers as:

2808 680 for 383/440 no A/C
2808 681 for 383/440/426 w A/C

Assuming I read it correctly.  


[edit]
Whoops those look to be assembly numbers.
Housing is 2780 988

With an impeller number of
2843 635 for 383/440 no A/C
2843 923 for 383/440/426 w A/C

[ws23rt]

There has been lots of talk about this. I have read most of it and the consensus seems to be go- with the original pump and hsg.
Your example on the right is something that doesn't fit with what works best.

[A383Wing]

the one on the left is what you would use if you do not have AC...

the one on the right you use for a paper weight

Bryan

[Moparman01]

Ok what does a factory OEM water pump look like? Does anyone have a pic, or is that what i have pictured on the left?? Anyone know what that pump is on the right? it came off a a 383 with 13:1 compresion, it was a drag motor a buddy of mine picked up cheap.

[ws23rt]

Something needs to be added to this discussion.
Suppose one has a high volume pump and drives it alone. (engine off). The water will warm up or get hot. It is the nature of things.
What we need to do is move water to cool the engine not add heat to it.
When we think we need more flow to cool better and increase the flow we just add more heat to the water instead. The water needs time to make the heat transfer we need and if we push it over the top we end up adding heat to the water as well as slowing the heat transfer time.
More is not always better. The designed amount is for a good reason.
BTW there are other threads about oil pressure. Any unneeded oil pressure is horsepower used which equals heat added to the oil from the pump.

[A383Wing]

Ok what does a factory OEM water pump look like? Does anyone have a pic, or is that what i have pictured on the left??

the one on the left

Here --> http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg1187227.html#msg1187227

[Moparman01]

Ok what does a factory OEM water pump look like? Does anyone have a pic, or is that what i have pictured on the left??

the one on the left

Here --> http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg1187227.html#msg1187227

Thanks for that link, that helps a ton!! So the 8 blade that i have, left one, is an A/C pump from what i gather from that thread, my car does not have A/C, should i find a 6 blade pump instead? Thanks!!

[A383Wing]

According to the 69 FSM the pump for a 440 is the following read as diameter-blades:

4.38"-8 standard
3.50"-6 A/C

no, see quote above...you will need the wider diameter blade setup.....for non-ac car....the AC pump takes the smaller diameter 6 blade. If you put the smaller pump blade diameter on your car, it will overheat...again

Bryan

[Moparman01]

Ok sorry for the confusion but that link discussing the different pumps starts by saying "8 Blade impeller Cast Iron - Stock: This is the air conditioning water pump. There are 8 blades but they are smaller and add up to the same amount of blade surface as the 6 bladed pumps. Behind the blades it is smooth, with a channel to help the water flow without turbulence, or creating a pocket of water churning and causing restriction." That's where I got the idea the 8 blade like I have is the A/C unit. So I should just stick with the pump on the left and call it good, i have already got rid of the aluminum pump housing and now have the iron OEM on it, I'll put that pump back in and see what happens!

[A383Wing]

yup...there ya go...stick with what has worked for years...those engineers back then were actually pretty smart...sometimes

I have had both non-ac pumps & ac pumps...if you put the wrong one in, it will overheat...either by cavatation, or not flowing enough coolant at the correct speed.

I had a non-ac pump (wider diameter blade) on a ac car...drove me crazy for years because it would get hotter the faster I drove it on freeway, it was cavatating .....around town was fine...then I discovered the difference in impeller diameters...issue solved with correct pump

Bryan

[bull]

Correct. Pound for pound there's really nothing better than the stock pumps.

[bakerhillpins]

yup...there ya go...stick with what has worked for years...those engineers back then were actually pretty smart...sometimes

I have had both non-ac pumps & ac pumps...if you put the wrong one in, it will overheat...either by cavatation, or not flowing enough coolant at the correct speed.

The pulley that drives the pump is also VERY important in this discussion. It's the element that determines the spin rate of the pump. If you don't use the correct combination you will also get the mess Bryan describes....

Now where is that info???...

I had a non-ac pump (wider diameter blade) on a ac car...drove me crazy for years because it would get hotter the faster I drove it on freeway, it was cavatating .....around town was fine...then I discovered the difference in impeller diameters...issue solved with correct pump

Bryan

This might be some of what I am seeing in my system. So it will be important for me to check this out this weekend too.

[firefighter3931]

Correct. Pound for pound there's really nothing better than the stock pumps.

Not quite true ; The Milidon aluminum pump is superior to a factory pump and it is lighter so "pound for pound" it's better 

One thing that often gets overlooked is the anti-cavitation plate that the factory pump didn't have....makes a big difference ! 


Ron

[Moparman01]

Correct. Pound for pound there's really nothing better than the stock pumps.

Not quite true ; The Milidon aluminum pump is superior to a factory pump and it is lighter so "pound for pound" it's better 

One thing that often gets overlooked is the anti-cavitation plate that the factory pump didn't have....makes a big difference ! 


Ron

Milidon pump, cavitation plate?? Is there an actual aftermarket upgrade pump that is better than the factory unit?

[Moparman01]

According to the 69 FSM the pump for a 440 is the following read as diameter-blades:

4.38"-8 standard
3.50"-6 A/C

Sorry guy's, gotta bring this up again! Last night i measured my water pump blade dia. (stock pump on the left in the pic) and it's only 4", not 4-3/8" like what is called for. I have another replacement water pump that is identical to the pump i have pictured and it too is only 4" across. The only numbers on the water pump are PH362, not sure what manufacture. How much trouble could 3/8" cause?? The reason for all this is i want to make sure everything is exactly correct when i put everything back together so maybe i can finally solve my over-heating problem!

[bakerhillpins]

I just pulled the pump off of my 69, which is really a 70 block. It's the same as yours. 8 blades where the blades measure 4" but the Pump Diameter is 4.38 (roughly 3/8"). Measure the diameter of the hole in the cast pump housing. Maybe that's what they are quoting.

Make sure you have the correct diameter pulley as well, I still haven't found the part #. The FSM says that the Fan to Crankshaft ratio is .95 to 1 for a non AC 440 or 383.

[flyinlow]

Can I stir the pot too?   

At first glance you wonder why an AC car has a smaller pump? I think its because of the drive ratio. Ac cars seam to have smaller pump pulleys, I think to get the fan speed up at idle to help with the extra cooling load from the AC condenser.   

[A383Wing]

the smaller pump for AC car is because it spins faster, so blade diameter is moving the water through the system at the same speed as the larger blade pump for non-AC cars.

and yes, the fan will spin a bit faster because of the pulley ratio

[ACUDANUT]

 My 70 Charger with a 440 had A/C. I removed all that crap and never messed with the Water pump.  Still runs and drives and I have had zero problems.  Too many "experts" here. 

[myk]

Ron says to go with the Milodon HV pump, and I would follow his recommendation...

[bakerhillpins]

My 70 Charger with a 440 had A/C. I removed all that crap and never messed with the Water pump.  Still runs and drives and I have had zero problems.  Too many "experts" here. 

Just quoting the 69 FSM. 

I am happy that you are not having any cooling issues with your 70. However, I am inclined to stick with the design that the OEM engineers came up with.  YMMV.

[Dino]

My 70 Charger with a 440 had A/C. I removed all that crap and never messed with the Water pump.  Still runs and drives and I have had zero problems.  Too many "experts" here. 

Just quoting the 69 FSM. 

I am happy that you are not having any cooling issues with your 70. However, I am inclined to stick with the design that the OEM engineers came up with.  YMMV.

I've been running an A/C car without A/C for years and temps don't go over 180.  I do have a compressor mounted, the stock RV2 for a long time and a modern one since a year or so.  I'll let you guys know how it does when A/C is up and running. 

[bakerhillpins]

It's not so much not having the AC, more that the pulley's and pumps match up. If you have the AC still belted in and the proper AC pump then I wouldn't expect you to have an overheating issue.

My AC car has been re-belted and the compressor removed. In my case they did change the pump to the Non AC impeller to match the change in V-belting. However, I have an overheating problem I am trying to solve.

I am also looking to find an AC style pump so I can get my AC restoration going for next year.

[Dino]

It's not so much not having the AC, more that the pulley's and pumps match up. If you have the AC still belted in and the proper AC pump then I wouldn't expect you to have an overheating issue.

My AC car has been re-belted and the compressor removed. In my case they did change the pump to the Non AC impeller to match the change in V-belting. However, I have an overheating problem I am trying to solve.

I am also looking to find an AC style pump so I can get my AC restoration going for next year.

Oh I didn't know you had a non A/C pump.  I though your setup was like mine.

Are you going to run the stock compressor?

[bakerhillpins]

I didn't know that either until last Monday evening. 

I plan on going back to the stock setup and as such I now need an AC pump. I am going to try to rebuild it this winter.