A little baffled by the grill situation

[bull]

I'm not going to bitch about this but I admit I don't understand something about reproduction grills. Why is it there are more than a dozen reproduction Mopar grills on the market right now but one of the most popular Mopars ever, actually, one of the most popular cars ever, cannot get even a center grill reproduction in any year? The center section of a 68, 69 or 70 is no more convoluted to reproduce than a 70 or 71 Cuda, or any of the other grills offered and yet not a single piece of a 2nd gen Charger is reproduced. My grill is repaired, painted and installed so it doesn't affect me personally but for those who come behind us I'd sure like to see more options out there than just hours of epoxy work.

http://www.classicindustries.com/mopar/parts/exterior-trim/grill-components/grills/?p=1&sb=0&r=15

[tan top]

you would think how popular second generations ,   there would of been a complete grill or just  centre sections  by now ,  yes Bob fist done a center section , looked an awesome product , although IMO well expensive , no offence Bob i'm sure we all appreciate how much monies/ investment  went into the tooling , before you ever sold one 
just compared to the other mopar repop grills out there !!

also i thought bob sold the tooling to a company or something  ?

[Ghoste]

I don't get it either Bull and it also happens to be a part that invariably takes a beating.

[bull]

you would think how popular second generations ,   there would of been a complete grill or just  centre sections  by now ,  yes Bob fist done a center section , looked an awesome product , although IMO well expensive , no offence Bob i'm sure we all appreciate how much monies/ investment  went into the tooling , before you ever sold one 
just compared to the other mopar repop grills out there !!

also i thought bob sold the tooling to a company or something  ?

I believe he sold the tooling and then the production of them dried up. Not sure about the tooling though as I got the impression it was not the industry standard, so who knows if it can be used in mass production.

Anyway, as everyone says you've got to follow the money which is why it makes no sense in light of the availability of all the other stuff out there. If someone's making money off Roadrunner and Duster grills they could certainly make money off 2nd gen Charger grills.

[Lee A]

They do make a repo centre grille for 69 chargers I got one 3 months ago from bob in Sweden 1000 bucks to my door

[bull]

Yeah, we were talking about that above. Limited vendor availability, nothing for '68 and '70 owners and serious price differential aside, at least someone is making something, right?

[Mike DC]

   
The only certainties in life are death, taxes, and no repro 68-70 Charger grilles.

[JB400]

   
The only certainties in life are death, taxes, and no repro 68-70 Charger grilles.

Don't give up hope.  We'll get our turn in the spotlight sometime.  Unfortunately, the aftermarket is still riding the e body wave of yesterday and have noticed the a body wave that is rising.  We're just in the trough right now.

[green69rt]

I was just thinking about 69 grills and 3d printers and so did a search.  3d printers are now available to make items up to about 36"x36" x 12".  I think that's getting close to what our grills are.  Current drawback is that it needs a 3D CAD design program to feed the printer so someone would have to generate the drawing.  Materials include two types of ABS plastic and others.  Maybe someday.....

[Ghoste]

I thought we were already the top of the wave.  

[Cooter]

Right now, working with a machine shop on trying to get an emblem repro'd which has ALOT of complex angles, and is about 15" long.....

The CAD drawing many refer to??? I began the drawing with the shop owner about July 3rd of last year......He has one portion of the back drawn. Got any idea how many points of reference there are in a CAD drawing? I didn't until I asked how it was coming with the drawing....ONE single angle can be as many as 50 different inputs.....Time is money. When a repro grill will cost over $5K, NOBODY will return the investment I don't care how good the repro is...Simple as that.


And there you have it folks, No repro grills for second Gen. Chargers.

[Ghoste]

The 70 Cuda grille isn't exactly a simple piece.

[JB400]

I'd say it is probably easier to make than say one for the  70's and up Darts or Dusters

[bull]

I'd say it is probably easier to make than say one for the  70's and up Darts or Dusters

Like this one?

http://www.classicindustries.com/mopar/parts/3574031.html

[JB400]

I'd say it is probably easier to make than say one for the  70's and up Darts or Dusters

Like this one?

http://www.classicindustries.com/mopar/parts/3574031.html

Yes, I say that one (or some of the other a body's) would be harder to make than a 70 Cuda grille.  But, I say that since they made that particular grille, one for our cars should be just around the corner.

[Fred]

It's baffling isn't it.

[bull]

I'd say it is probably easier to make than say one for the  70's and up Darts or Dusters

Like this one?

http://www.classicindustries.com/mopar/parts/3574031.html

Yes, I say that one (or some of the other a body's) would be harder to make than a 70 Cuda grille.  But, I say that since they made that particular grille, one for our cars should be just around the corner.

The '71 Cuda is a mess too and they make that one. The full Cuda grill is about the same is what they were charging for just the '69 center piece.

[JB400]

Any idea who the exact manufacturer of those grilles are?  It would be nice to know exactly how far down on the pecking order we are.

[bull]

Any idea who the exact manufacturer of those grilles are?  It would be nice to know exactly how far down on the pecking order we are.

Good question. I have no idea the answer either. Seems strange how much of this stuff can be easily traced back to places like BE&A or AMD but grills seems to come out of nowhere.

[2Luke2]

Working with technology for most of my childhood/adult life. I could look into 3D printing a grill. I wanted to get one for other projects anyway haha. May I ask if there is a certain part that would be priority? I was thinking the grey/silver surround for the whole grill.

[2Luke2]

Actually looking around for a big enough 3d printer would be the problem, but I found a ton of stuff on plastic molding. I think I might have a go at that at some point.

[bull]

Working with technology for most of my childhood/adult life. I could look into 3D printing a grill. I wanted to get one for other projects anyway haha. May I ask if there is a certain part that would be priority? I was thinking the grey/silver surround for the whole grill.

That silver surround on the 68/69 grills is part of the center grill section in the middle as well as the entire headlight bucket assembly on both ends. You can't do that surround without doing the entire plastic portion of the grill.

[Mike DC]

                
I've thought for years that somebody could reproduce the Charger grilles in several pieces.  The whole grille seems do-able in fiberglass sections except for the slatted openings.  The opening mesh could be done with a much smaller (read: cheaper) mold than the entire thing.  Pay up for an ABS mold of the slatted openings, and then fasten it onto an otherwise fiberglass grille repro.


But this hobby tends to shit a brick at the idea of anything not appearing 100% stock on a reproduction item, even if you have to wedge your head deep into the nether regions of the car to see the difference.  

[Ghoste]

Having it perfect is part of the challenge.

[Mike DC]

I think the idea could look pretty much perfect from the front.  It would just show something if you stuck your head into the front end bodywork to look for it. 

[Ghoste]

I can only speak for myself but for me it would be the fact that I knew. I know it's stupid but it would really bother me.

[bull]

I can only speak for myself but for me it would be the fact that I knew. I know it's stupid but it would really bother me.

It would me too. From a business standpoint I would think you'd be better off doing them as original so as not to lose sales from those who want it to look like OE. The percentage of those who wouldn't care is probably too small and the concourse crowd has all the money.

[Mike DC]

I understand the issue that some people care about originality even in ways you can't see.  I would care too on a certain type of resto.  

But I find it crazy that so many people care that we can't get decent functional parts made.  These grilles have been needed for decades.  Why is it okay to give a car a modern disc brake conversion and exhaust headers, but a few extra bolts on the backside of the grille is a faux pas?  IMHO the emphasis on originality is not wrong, just misplaced sometimes. 

[Ghoste]

I'm not a huge fan of the modern disc brake conversions either.   I do like headers though so don't ask me how to explain that.  For me, the real question is still, if they can make a Cuda grille accurately, why not a Charger one?

[JB400]

I think the question is more like, why haven't they made one for the chargers?  I'm pretty sure they can make one.

[hatersaurusrex]

I'm not going to bitch about this but I admit I don't understand something about reproduction grills. Why is it there are more than a dozen reproduction Mopar grills on the market right now but one of the most popular Mopars ever, actually, one of the most popular cars ever, cannot get even a center grill reproduction in any year? The center section of a 68, 69 or 70 is no more convoluted to reproduce than a 70 or 71 Cuda, or any of the other grills offered and yet not a single piece of a 2nd gen Charger is reproduced. My grill is repaired, painted and installed so it doesn't affect me personally but for those who come behind us I'd sure like to see more options out there than just hours of epoxy work.

http://www.classicindustries.com/mopar/parts/exterior-trim/grill-components/grills/?p=1&sb=0&r=15

I think the answer lies in how you define 'popular'.  If you mean the 2nd gens were popular as in: everyone loves them- then yes.  But if you define popularity in as in: there were very high production numbers - then no.  And that's where the money is going to be.    Most of what gets repopped in volume are items that wear or rust, so the demand is probably much much higher.

Add in the fact that it's a difficult part to repro accurately, which means small batches, high prices, and bitching, and it'd be hard for anyone to take that on and hope to even recoup their money.   The Charger crowd appears to be full of people who want their cars to be cool and exclusive but all parts to cost the same as Camaro parts do - or they're willing to wait another 5 years till they get an OEM one at a swap meet for four dollars.   Lots of 'unreality' here.

[bull]

How do the production numbers of, say, the '69 Charger compare to the '70 Cuda?

[bull]

I get a total of 55,459 Cudas in 1970 and whatever the graph below says for 69 Charger production. Granted, the numbers seem to be all over the place depending on the source but I don't think there were more Cudas than 69 Chargers. And if there were more I doubt there was a huge differential.

[Mike DC]

I think a lot of the cost lies in the nature of the molds it needs.     

[Cooter]

The Charger Grille has to do things like MOVE. Separate parts that have to work/do things. The Cuda grille just has to bolt up and sit there.

Plus, there are fans of E-bodies. How many years was it Cuda/Challenger quarters were available LONG BEFORE Charger panels. E-bodies attract business because they are popular.

[Ghoste]

All true, but everytime one of the car magazines has a list of "most popular" or "most collectible" or even "most valuable" musclecars what always makes the list?  The 2nd gen Charger, and sometimes it surpasses the E-body on those list since the last price spike happened and all of the investors and wannabees got their Challenger/Cuda itch scratched.
And hey, aren't you GL guys always telling us the General is the most popular car on the planet?

It's time for someone to repop the Charger grille and show some overdue respect dammit.

[bull]

The Charger Grille has to do things like MOVE. Separate parts that have to work/do things. The Cuda grille just has to bolt up and sit there.

Plus, there are fans of E-bodies. How many years was it Cuda/Challenger quarters were available LONG BEFORE Charger panels. E-bodies attract business because they are popular.

The center section doesn't move at all. Neither do the headlight surrounds. These are the parts that break most.

[JB400]

How many restos are being held up due to the lack of a decent grille? 

[Ghoste]

Or at the very least not achieving the quality they deserve?

[bull]

Or at the very least not achieving the quality they deserve?

That has been blamed as being part of the problem - the whole Premier Plastics debacle. But then if it went through the common process of development, marketing, production and retail, where the sellers act as the stop-gap quality control advocates before it goes on sale, we'd all be better off.

[Ghoste]

I didn't want to bring their name to the discussion but I've been thinking about them for the entire thread Bull.  They pissed off a lot of potential customers in the 2nd gen Charger fraternity and I wonder how many possible grille repop places might be scared off because of that (thinking there would be an uphill battle selling them now).

[Cooter]

All true, but everytime one of the car magazines has a list of "most popular" or "most collectible" or even "most valuable" musclecars what always makes the list?  The 2nd gen Charger, and sometimes it surpasses the E-body on those list since the last price spike happened and all of the investors and wannabees got their Challenger/Cuda itch scratched.
And hey, aren't you GL guys always telling us the General is the most popular car on the planet?

It's time for someone to repop the Charger grille and show some overdue respect dammit.

Being the most popular Car because of the General Lee doesn't ness. mean there will be a run on Orange paint, Beige Vinyl, Roll bars, CB's, and Vector Wheels....
Same with the Grilles. Sure, the Charger Grille has been repro'd Where were you guys? PM and BOBFIST did it.
All this about repop grilles and as soon as 'Bobfist' came out with his $1500.00 Center sections,[ actually DID what Premier Plastics couldn't, and did a damn fine job of it] All I saw/heard was Bitching and complaining about the price...

Cuda folks must have had more money than the Charger Folks huh?....

[Ghoste]

I'd pay that price depending on the style of plastic and molding method used but that's a personal decision.

[bull]

All true, but everytime one of the car magazines has a list of "most popular" or "most collectible" or even "most valuable" musclecars what always makes the list?  The 2nd gen Charger, and sometimes it surpasses the E-body on those list since the last price spike happened and all of the investors and wannabees got their Challenger/Cuda itch scratched.
And hey, aren't you GL guys always telling us the General is the most popular car on the planet?

It's time for someone to repop the Charger grille and show some overdue respect dammit.

Being the most popular Car because of the General Lee doesn't ness. mean there will be a run on Orange paint, Beige Vinyl, Roll bars, CB's, and Vector Wheels....
Same with the Grilles. Sure, the Charger Grille has been repro'd Where were you guys? PM and BOBFIST did it.
All this about repop grilles and as soon as 'Bobfist' came out with his $1500.00 Center sections,[ actually DID what Premier Plastics couldn't, and did a damn fine job of it] All I saw/heard was Bitching and complaining about the price...

Cuda folks must have had more money than the Charger Folks huh?....

You can get an entire Cuda grill for quite a bit less than this $1,500 center section. Oh, right, it moves.

[Ghoste]

Agreed, the GL hasn't started a run on orange paint and so on but for every Charger that has been done up as a General, there are a couple thousand not done up as one and they all have the same grille.  My point really had nothing to do with the GL per se but more that the car is popular enough to have a decent reproduction of the grille available.  As for the price, as I said I'll pay the dough for the right one.

[bull]

I defy anyone here to convincingly explain how the new 68 Cuda grill set pictured below is easier to make, less expensive to make or in higher demand than a 68 or 69 Charger center grill section. The two-piece set is listed for $395 on the PG Classic website, roughly $1,000 less than the bobfist grill.

People poo-pooing Ghoste and I and defending the reproduction poo-pooers about this are not helping to improve the situation. They call it DEMAND for a reason. Again, I'm not in this for myself. My grill is done and installed. The lack of reproduction 2nd gen grill parts defies logic and I for one am planning to fix it.

[JB400]

I for one, would love to see more 2nd gen parts being done, especially the grilles.  I'd also love to see more 70 front end parts being done, but, I'm wondering how many chargers are waiting for these grilles.  I'm also wondering how many cars are being overlooked just because the lack of a grille prevents it from being restored.   A and E bodies obviously don't have this problem.  RR, GTX's don't have this problem either (except maybe the 68's)  But, every year of Charger in the muscle car era doesn't have a repop grille available.  So, what's the holdup and how many cars are being held up or overlooked because of it?

[ACUDANUT]

The Charger Grille has to do things like MOVE. Separate parts that have to work/do things. The Cuda grille just has to bolt up and sit there.

Plus, there are fans of E-bodies. How many years was it Cuda/Challenger quarters were available LONG BEFORE Charger panels. E-bodies attract business because they are popular.

I don't think any grills "move".  They might flex a little due to the heat and or cold temps.

[bull]

I assume he was talking about the headlight doors going up and down, which has nothing to do with anything. One part gets a hole and the other part gets a pin.

[Mike DC]

  
The repro industry has been irrationally under-serving the 68-70 Charger market for decades.  I don't expect it to change any time soon.


But at the same time, I doubt there are a lot of Chargers out there not getting restorations just because grilles are expensive.  Restorations are expensive in every way.  $1500 is not a big portion of $30,000.



Maybe the fact that 2nd-gen grilles have so many separate pieces is putting some companies off.  They cannot advertise "complete grilles" until they tool up at least 5 different parts, and the total price for the set cannot be brought down very low either.  Technically a company could just offer some parts of the grilles, but I'm saying maybe they are treating all the parts like a package deal when they evaluate the economics of it.  

I'm not defending this thinking, I'm just theorizing that maybe it's happening.  

       

[Cooter]

 




Maybe the fact that 2nd-gen grilles have so many separate pieces is putting some companies off.  They cannot advertise "complete grilles" until they tool up at least 5 different parts, and the total price for the set cannot be brought down very low either.  Technically a company could just offer some parts of the grilles, but I'm saying maybe they are treating all the parts like a package deal when they evaluate the economics of it.  

I'm not defending this thinking, I'm just theorizing that maybe it's happening.  

       

Finally, the gold star for actually understanding what is posted instead of seeing/reading only what they want to interpret just for the sake of arguement. 5 separate pieces is gonna cost more to produce than one simple bolt in piece.  I find it simple economics. You wanna make money doing grilles, do the EASY ones FIRST. Save the harder/more complex grilles for another time. Unfortunately, I fear that time may never come when a complete grille for a 1968-69 Charger will prolly cost around $3K....This grille has to have two headlight doors that function and work together. This causes all kinds of manufacturing cost problems. Therefore, the whole grille doesn't "Move", but there are parts of it that DO. Lemme see if I can say this AGAIN here......Not too many were buying and only whining about the $1500.00 Center sections.....I can all but hear them whining about $3K grilles.

[bull]

And if you had read and comprehended what you and I both wrote before you'd understand that people can and have made just certain parts of the grills that are commonly problematic, right? The EASY parts FIRST? My point with the last photo being that the grills being sold now should be no more difficult and costly than the CENTER section of a 68 or 69.

[hawkeye]

Look at how they just scanned the part into the 3d printer.  Within 5 years you will be able to buy almost any of these smaller parts.  Could do it now but the grill is just a little too large.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_UZE   

[green69rt]

I did just a little shopping online and the biggest 3D printer produces a 15" x 15" x 10" object.  Not quit big enough for our grills, but they keep getting bigger so maybe in a few years... Some also use a scanning technology so this would replace the 3D CAD drawing that some use now.

As Bob Fist showed, it can be done now if we're just willing to pay the cost (I would.)

[bull]

As Bob Fist showed, it can be done now if we're just willing to pay the cost (I would.)

IMO the jury is still out on those 69 grills. Time will tell.

I did just a little shopping online and the biggest 3D printer produces a 15" x 15" x 10" object.  Not quit big enough for our grills, but they keep getting bigger so maybe in a few years... Some also use a scanning technology so this would replace the 3D CAD drawing that some use now.

Someone was saying that there are plans in place for some larger 3D printers. But yes, right now they're too small. Regardless, I'd rather see the 2nd gen grills go through asimilar development process that the others that are posted in this thread apparently went through. The end product would be more credible if the vendors did the testing and quality control rather than some guy alone in his garage (not a reference to bobfist, so take it easy everyone).

Would anyone buy them if they were made out of metal? But then the bending process would probably cost as much as the injection molding process. Someone is making injection molded grills so I suppose it boils down to whether or not they're making any money.

[hemihead]

I feel so bad for you 2nd Gen guys . Try buying a Door , Fender , Bulge Hood new for a 3rd Gen . And if and when it is ever made 3rd Gen parts cost
2X as much as the same part for a 2nd Gen . Just compare prices on Taillights of each for example .
Sorry to stick my nose in but be thankful for what you guys can buy new and the price .

[green69rt]

As Bob Fist showed, it can be done now if we're just willing to pay the cost (I would.)

IMO the jury is still out on those 69 grills. Time will tell.

I did just a little shopping online and the biggest 3D printer produces a 15" x 15" x 10" object.  Not quit big enough for our grills, but they keep getting bigger so maybe in a few years... Some also use a scanning technology so this would replace the 3D CAD drawing that some use now.

Someone was saying that there are plans in place for some larger 3D printers. But yes, right now they're too small. Regardless, I'd rather see the 2nd gen grills go through the same development process that the others that are posted in this thread went through. The end product would be more credible if the vendors did the testing and quality control rather than some guy lone in his garage (not a reference to bobfist, so take it easy everyone).

Yeah, sure like to hear if anyone has comments on the Fist grills.   And yes, most of us know about the small manufacturer producing parts in the garage, (yeap, I'm talking about PPR.)

[JB400]

I sent an email to Classic Industries to find out who is reproducing the plastic grilles for Mopars.  Maybe, we can find out what the holdup is.

[bull]

I sent an email to Classic Industries to find out who is reproducing the plastic grilles for Mopars.  Maybe, we can find out what the holdup is.

The holdup is always money. Understandibly no one wants to spend more than they make and some in the reproduction industry believe most of the people begging for expensive parts scatter when the part is actually produced. I'm sure there's a lot of truth in that. Honestly, if I had to choose between spending three weeks to repair a grill to the tune of $400 or buy one for $1,500, I'd choose option #1. Especially if the $1,500 part was not made the way the factory made them.

I also sent an email to Metro Parts, the company I believe produced the '71 Cuda grill. Obviously it can be done, but will it?

[bill440rt]

The only "real" differences between the '68 & '69 grilles is the center section (obviously), and the driver's headlamp door. The rest is the SAME! 

[green69rt]

Just a question, because I don't know.  Are the doors and the outside sections the same for the 1968 and 1969 Chargers??   If so that would seem to increase the market.    The center sections are a different beast, obviously.

[bull]

Just a question, because I don't know.  Are the doors and the outside sections the same for the 1968 and 1969 Chargers??   If so that would seem to increase the market.    The center sections are a different beast, obviously.

You're right. If you're only going to produce one part the safest thing to produce would be the plastic portion of the headlight surrounds for 68 and 69. They're the same and they're almost always broken and the corners are MIA.

[Ghoste]

That center section on the 69's takes a real beating too.

[green69rt]

I haven't taken my grill apart yet for repair but the doors and headlight surrounds should be the simplest to reproduce.    I followed the Fist project and he actually repro'd the hardest part first, the center.   So for someone to undertake the surrounds especially, would be a big help to us.  I guess the 70's folks would still be stuck.

[Ghoste]

I wonder if there aren't similar parts in the 70 one though?

[BIGBLCK11]

The 70 grill is one piece for the center section and entire outer surround.  The headlight doors are also different, having the horizontal ribs/recess through them.   I guess they should make it first!  It would only take 3 moulds.  

[bobfist]

Hi!

I still have the tooling for the 69 center grilles and has not been sold to any company.
The price for the production was to high for us and in the end for the customer but we still have them.
Hoping for some cheaper production in the factory since new machines are coming in

Tony

[bull]

Tony, are your '69 grills injection moulded?

[bobfist]

Yes but we cant show ypu how we make them. Since the factory we make them in are the same as produce to volvo etc.
If anyone wondering how the quality has been just ask the people in this forum what they think about the part.

Tony

[bull]

If anyone wondering how the quality has been just ask the people in this forum what they think about the part.

Tony

So far nobody's talking. At least none that I've seen.

[bobfist]

Lee A at this forum from Canada is one of them
He has written at page one at this thread if you read

here is his pictures comparing the stock grille and ours

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,100758.msg1183634.html#msg1183634

[bull]

Lee A at this forum from Canada is one of them
He has written at page one at this thread if you read

here is his pictures comparing the stock grille and ours

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,100758.msg1183634.html#msg1183634

I wonder how many people here have purchased one. Any idea how many you've sold?

[bobfist]

have sold 10 or 12  what i know
Many at ebay, dont know how many of them that are members here
got some replies there also about the grille quality

This company from Germany called me one day after they heard about the production.
They drove up here one day just to see it, they had nothing bad to say about it.

http://www.moparshop.de