440 -> 505 Stroker build

[heyoldguy]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

Jim, are you saying that 11.5:1 with the XE285HL & a tight quench closed chamber aluminum head won't run on pump premium at a mile of elevation ?

The compression could allways be lowered to 10.5:1 but inmo that wouldn't be necessary. 


Ron

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

[heyoldguy]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

I'm sorry sir, but could you refer me to what advice you're referring to? I feel as though you feel like I disrespected you because of your need to post this here. My intentions were not to do that, but to get more opinions. If I took the word of the first car salesman on the internet I probably wouldn't end up getting what I really wanted. My apologies if you do feel that way.

I felt no disrespect towards me. I have not been trying to protect myself, but you and your money. How much horsepower will you lose by dropping one point of compression? If you are at 600 HP and you drop one point you will make something like 578-582 horsepower. What does just 500 HP on the street feel like? How much do you really need to get a thrill? What is safe?

You are welcome to do as you wish. I just wanted you to think, "Am I being practical? Or have I already decided my course of action and just looking for someone to verify what I already believe." Its okay to wrestle with detonation if you wish but you can have grundles of horsepower and really be safe. I live on the edge with 11.9:1, iron heads, .160" "quench" (?) and 91 octane. Never again for me, never again.

I can answer you OOTB air flows on the Edelbrock RPM and the Indy EZ as I have tested both on the same flowbench.

Lift......................EZ.................RPM

.100....................66 cfm..........74 cfm
.200...................127..............149
.300...................181..............211
.400...................232..............253
.500...................272..............280
.600...................299..............292
.700...................315..............292

No, I do not have the flows reversed. The EZ stinks OOTB unless it is ported. If you intended to run OOTB the RPM is a superior head for a cam to .600" lift.

Bye-the-bye, if you switch to the EZ and change nothing else, your compression would go from 11.539:1 to 12.602:1! The EZ has a 75cc combustion chamber.

[fy469rtse]

  :popcrn:Jeeze I wish I had asked Ron  about my build before I started, damn, found this site well after building my engine,
Question for Ron and others can chip in too , any one used the Victor junior heads and victor intake, comparable flow numbers to indy's esp with a little bit of port work , it might just be another option for top end of his build

[heyoldguy]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

[firefighter3931]

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

You make some valid points Jim  The power difference between 11.5 & 10.5 is minimal. I was just referencing Luke's elevation at 6000ft and that he may occasionally drive down to 5000ft but that the car would be driven at higher elevation all the time. Would it be safe at sea level with that displacement/cam/static compression....probably not. I was thinking if he ever did plan to drive closer to sea level he could simply splash some 110 into the gas tank...

I know Brian's 493 ran great with that cam and 11:1 compression at 1000ft elevation in Iowa.

My 572 with a 4.50 bore runs fine with 10.75:1 at sea level on 91 pump swill.

I do hear what you're saying though and agree that 10.5:1 with tight quench and a closed chamber aluminum head would be absolutely safe at any elevation 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron, would you recommend the Indy EZ heads over the Edelbrock RPMs? I asked because I was looking up some flow numbers and it seems out of the box the EZs are a bit better. I know they cost a bit more, but since I'm running them out of the box I figured it might be worth it to spend the extra money up front. What do you think?

For what you're wanting to do the RPM head is a better choice. The std port window will make killer torque and have fantastic throttle response from idle to redline. The EZ heads are nice but you need to open the intake ports up to max wedge size in order to get them to shine.

On a mild street motor, velocity is the most critical factor....especially at lower engine speeds. The larger the ports, the slower the airspeed. It will make less peak power with the RPM head vs a max wedge EZ head but the torque curve will be much stronger and more responsive to throttle input. 

Out of the box....the RPM is the better choice, inmo. 


Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

You make some valid points Jim  The power difference between 11.5 & 10.5 is minimal. I was just referencing Luke's elevation at 6000ft and that he may occasionally drive down to 5000ft but that the car would be driven at higher elevation all the time. Would it be safe at sea level with that displacement/cam/static compression....probably not. I was thinking if he ever did plan to drive closer to sea level he could simply splash some 110 into the gas tank...

I know Brian's 493 ran great with that cam and 11:1 compression at 1000ft elevation in Iowa.

My 572 with a 4.50 bore runs fine with 10.75:1 at sea level on 91 pump swill.

I do hear what you're saying though and agree that 10.5:1 with tight quench and a closed chamber aluminum head would be absolutely safe at any elevation 


Ron

OldGuy thanks for the detailed information. I do very much appreciate it.

Ron, I will stick with the RPM head and check to see if it's too late to go to a lower compression piston. I ordered the stroker kit and it was waiting on pistons. If it is too late; then would I be ok just going to an 88cc head and a larger gasket or should I just send the pistons back and ask for a different one?

I think it would be a better idea as OldGuy pointed out to rule on the safe side and go with a lower compression. I will try to shoot for a point lower at 10.5. I will update tomorrow after I call Hughes up to see if I can swap the pistons before they ship.

Thanks again!

[fy469rtse]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

sorry late at night abreiviating  especially , edelbrock victor juniors , great flow numbers out of the box , just wanted Ron thoughts , , also want link to see Rons car , can always see his engine but don't know if he posted his ride, picturing bright red with a Dalmatian in the passenger seat lol it'd
S got to be one tough looking ride

[firefighter3931]

OldGuy thanks for the detailed information. I do very much appreciate it.

Ron, I will stick with the RPM head and check to see if it's too late to go to a lower compression piston. I ordered the stroker kit and it was waiting on pistons. If it is too late; then would I be ok just going to an 88cc head and a larger gasket or should I just send the pistons back and ask for a different one?

I think it would be a better idea as OldGuy pointed out to rule on the safe side and go with a lower compression. I will try to shoot for a point lower at 10.5. I will update tomorrow after I call Hughes up to see if I can swap the pistons before they ship.

Thanks again!

Hey Luke, if they haven't shipped your kit then it's definately not too late to change the piston option.  What you want is a piston with a 15cc Dish (inverted dome) to achieve the target compression ratio. Using an 84cc chamber at zero deck with a .040 head gasket you have perfect quench and 10.5:1 static compression. See if they have something available in the 15-16cc range with that rotating assembly. 

You do not want to use the 88cc head. That is an open chamber design and you would lose your tight quench and be prone to detonation. 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

sorry late at night abreiviating  especially , edelbrock victor juniors , great flow numbers out of the box , just wanted Ron thoughts , , also want link to see Rons car , can always see his engine but don't know if he posted his ride, picturing bright red with a Dalmatian in the passenger seat lol it'd
S got to be one tough looking ride

The Victors are descent but there are some installation headaches that you wouldn't experience using an Indy EZ. Like the EZ it is more of a race head and to make them shine you really need to open the intake ports to max wedge. 

The things i don't like about the Victors ;

- rediculously high intake ports which in turn raises the intake manifold and limits hood clearance.
- few rocker arm options because of the big offset on the intake valve.
- Early production Victors had issues with the valvecover rail which was machined too small and caused sealing issues and rocker arm interferance with some valvecovers.

In the end i went with the CNC Indy EZ 295cc castings on the 572 which is a pump gas build. I like the fact that i could use my Harland Sharp rockers and TTI headers that i had been using with the RPM heads. The T&D roller rockers are $1000 and i didn't see the need to replace a perfectly good set of rocker arms. My exhaust was configured around a standard ex port location so i wasn't about to swap in another set of $1000 headers.


Here is a pic of the Black Pig at Pinks all out in Bristol 


Ron

[heyoldguy]

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

You make some valid points Jim   The power difference between 11.5 & 10.5 is minimal. I was just referencing Luke's elevation at 6000ft and that he may occasionally drive down to 5000ft but that the car would be driven at higher elevation all the time. Would it be safe at sea level with that displacement/cam/static compression....probably not. I was thinking if he ever did plan to drive closer to sea level he could simply splash some 110 into the gas tank...

I know Brian's 493 ran great with that cam and 11:1 compression at 1000ft elevation in Iowa.

My 572 with a 4.50 bore runs fine with 10.75:1 at sea level on 91 pump swill.

I do hear what you're saying though and agree that 10.5:1 with tight quench and a closed chamber aluminum head would be absolutely safe at any elevation  


Ron

You sweet talker you. I have the greatest respect for your opinions. I think your head evaluations you've made are spot on here. Don't you sell the Firecore distributors? At this point of time in my life, I find them to be the easiest to finely tune of any I have used.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the kind words Jim, much appreciated. Just know that the feeling is mutual and your engine masters record speaks for itself. 

Yes, I am one of Rick's dealers for the Firecore product line and field a lot of tech questions for the company. We are good buddies and are Firefighter brothers. Rick has worked very hard to build this company and i'm very proud to be one of his representatives. 

It's nice when a product truly delivers as advertised and i feel 100% confident in recommending them to friends and family. The new billet distributors look and more importantly.... work fantastic and as you know are very user friendly. 

Glad we came to an agreement on Luke's static compression dilemma 


Ron

[2Luke2]

I agree now I can worry about 1 million other questions we will most likely have. I'm at a client's site today so I didn't get a chance to call this morning. I will be able to call in a few hours and see if they are able to swap the pistons before they ship. Hopefully it will be that easy. I saw they had a set of -13 and -14.3 dished pistons on their site, but hopefully they will have something in the 15-16 range as you suggested.  Thanks again to both of you.

[2Luke2]

Ok so I called Hughes and they don't have anything in a non custom piston in the -15 -16 range. So would it be the same thing to drop to a -26cc piston and a 75cc e-head? I could even get the head shaved if I needed to up it from the 10.3 it would turn out to be with the .039 gasket or maybe even use the .20 gasket?

[heyoldguy]

Hang on. You haven't been abandoned. I've been up to my armpits in alligators trying to get this 532 Hemi on the dyno by Monday.

[firefighter3931]

Luke, I would call Hughes and have them order the custom pistons for your build. Usually, a custom set of slugs will run $150-$200 extra and that is money well spent. 

Build it right the first time and don't look back ! 


Ron

[fy469rtse]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

sorry late at night abreiviating  especially , edelbrock victor juniors , great flow numbers out of the box , just wanted Ron thoughts , , also want link to see Rons car , can always see his engine but don't know if he posted his ride, picturing bright red with a Dalmatian in the passenger seat lol it'd
S got to be one tough looking ride

The Victors are descent but there are some installation headaches that you wouldn't experience using an Indy EZ. Like the EZ it is more of a race head and to make them shine you really need to open the intake ports to max wedge. 

The things i don't like about the Victors ;

- rediculously high intake ports which in turn raises the intake manifold and limits hood clearance.
- few rocker arm options because of the big offset on the intake valve.
- Early production Victors had issues with the valvecover rail which was machined too small and caused sealing issues and rocker arm interferance with some valvecovers.

In the end i went with the CNC Indy EZ 295cc castings on the 572 which is a pump gas build. I like the fact that i could use my Harland Sharp rockers and TTI headers that i had been using with the RPM heads. The T&D roller rockers are $1000 and i didn't see the need to replace a perfectly good set of rocker arms. My exhaust was configured around a standard ex port location so i wasn't about to swap in another set of $1000 headers.


Here is a pic of the Black Pig at Pinks all out in Bristol  Very nice car Ron, would not describe it as a black pig, yes like I said , wish I had you to talk things through, had to deal with all those issues you outlined, on the other side now and resolved , thought it was just me and inexperienced , always the case when you start modifying ,getting parts to mate
Ron

[firefighter3931]

Very nice car Ron, would not describe it as a black pig, yes like I said , wish I had you to talk things through, had to deal with all those issues you outlined, on the other side now and resolved , thought it was just me and inexperienced , always the case when you start modifying ,getting parts to mate

Thanks ! I call it the Black Pig because it's a 4000lb street car that thinks it's a race car 

Good to hear you got things sorted out....there is a solution to every problem but some solutions just cost more than others. Just part of the learning curve 


Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron, here's the pan we stripped 3 coats of paint off of... This is what we are planning on trying to reuse hopefully. Still need to find an oil pickup though.

[firefighter3931]

That oilpan looks fine Luke.....with a  6qt capacity and descent baffles it should work good in conjunction with the windage tray 


Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron I took another look at our oil pickup and there are some holes down around where the screen is at. I'm not even going to worry about it and just get a new one. I would hate for another chunk or something to break away and be the beginning to a bearing failure or blocked oil passage.

As for an update we should get our rotating assembly this week and hopefully to the machine shop for them to finish the bore/hone/decking. Then we can start mocking up the assembly and checking for clearances and what not. We are still about 4,500k short on parts so it's still going to be a bit while we wait for funds. We did get our heads, intake, lifters, cam, chain, and gaskets in though so we got a good chunk of the big parts.

Though we did have a question about our Edelbrock heads. We took them out of the box to fit a set of rockers on them and noticed there is a lot of excess material where the machine didn't clean up after itself(We can post pictures if you want to see what I'm talking about). I could definitely see this being an issue as stuff breaks off and then ends up somewhere else in the engine. So we thought we could take a stiff wire brush and just try to brush off the excess aluminum, but we wanted to ask if that was the best way to handle it.

Also we wanted to know if we should just have someone clean them up a bit for us. Obviously that would cost more money and we aren't talking about a full out port job, but just to look and clean them up so they aren't so rough. We aren't sure what someone would charge for something like that so any estimates that anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

The water pump we got from Hughes we sent back and we are going to order the Mancini kit once the funds hit the card again. It definitely was the same pump/housing that 440 source is selling so anyone looking at buying that one you now know. It's stamped with PRW instead of 440source and that's the only difference.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Luke,

If the pickup is suspect then it's best to purchase a new one that matches the contours of the original. They're cheap enough and it's not worth taking a risk assuming yours is in the condition as described 

As for the heads, what you're seeing is casting flash. It wouldn't hurt to take them to your machine shop and have them inspect the heads. Have the castings cleaned up and have them check the valve guide clearance. Sometimes they come a little too tight and the guides might need some minor honing to open them up a tad. 

I allways have any new cylinder head checked out. Mass produced parts sometimes need a little TLC 



Ron

[cdr]

i dont see any #s on that oil pan,but i think it is to deep at the rear section,ie the drag link will rub on the pan.

[2Luke2]

Hi Luke,

If the pickup is suspect then it's best to purchase a new one that matches the contours of the original. They're cheap enough and it's not worth taking a risk assuming yours is in the condition as described 

As for the heads, what you're seeing is casting flash. It wouldn't hurt to take them to your machine shop and have them inspect the heads. Have the castings cleaned up and have them check the valve guide clearance. Sometimes they come a little too tight and the guides might need some minor honing to open them up a tad. 

I allways have any new cylinder head checked out. Mass produced parts sometimes need a little TLC 



Ron

Thanks Ron, I took the heads to the machine shop today. They checked the valves and spring pressures and also the flash I saw. They most mass produced ones come with a little extra, but are pretty easy to clean up. So that should be good to go.

Definitely going to get a new oil pickup though, just wanted to make sure I get the right one. I seen a few sites that are claiming to have stroker only pickups. The current one I have is this one. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mooilpiandsc.html. So I just wanted to get the right one.

[2Luke2]

i dont see any #s on that oil pan,but i think it is to deep at the rear section,ie the drag link will rub on the pan.

Yep I noticed it didn't have any numbers, but it doesn't sit any lower than the k-frame. No idea what brand of pan it is, but it's in pretty good shape. Just needs a little paint now that we cleaned it up. Thanks for the picture though. The help is appreciated.