440 -> 505 Stroker build

[2Luke2]

Hello all! My girl and I bought a 70 Charger with a bad engine. We have gotten the engine tore down and at the machine shop now. We are going to have it bored .40 over. We are planning a 505-507 stroker motor and wanted to get some more experienced people to look at the build and let us know if we are making any big mistakes. The car will only be street driven, but we like to get in the throttle when the roads are open. The car has a 8 3/4 3.91 suregrip, it's an auto with power brakes, power steering, and A/C so a bit of vacuum would help. Though we aren't apposed to switching to manual brakes if needed. The A/C we don't run, but don't want to take it out in case we decide to sell it down the road. Lastly and the hardest part for us to figure out is our 6000ft altitude. Anyway here is our parts list so far.


69 440 block bored .40 over. Not decked yet due to not having the rotating assembly on hand and confusion with compression ratio desired for current altitude.
Crank - 4.250 forged crank
Rods - 7.1" chevy
Pistons - forged -4.47cc flat top
Heads - Edelbrock performer rpm 84cc straight out of the box
Rockers - Crane gold roller rockers 1.5 ratio

Cam - We are stuck here... got a couple recommendations from Lunati and Comp Cams we are sticking with the hydro flat tappet for budget reasons.
Comp Cam - Xe275HL
Lunati Voodoo- 10230703 or 10230704 maybe 10230705
We were also given some other recommendations from another forum. I'm not sure if they were being serious for a street application, but they suggested XE294H


Ignition - MSD with 6AL2 box or MSD ready to run, but I just saw some posts on this board about another option that I'm researching.
Carb - Looking for a bigger one, we have a 750 Edelbrock 1411 right now, but know we might need a bigger one.
Headers - TTI 2" with 3" collectors
Exhaust - Undecided brand/size/custom all the above

The engine should be around 11.5:1 static compression ratio and I think 9.56:1 dynamic if I did my numbers right for the first comp cam above with a 0 deck... That's a little over what I was shooting for, but was hoping someone would be able to help out with that. We have been told that the 11:1 is great here in the Springs, but also been told by Hughes that they would go 13:1. Now I know altitude makes a different, but I never knew how much. We only have 91 octane here at the pumps and we don't want to get into trouble if we drive down the mountain a few miles and get into the 4000-5000ft altitude areas. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
-LnL

PS... We know everyone loves pictures so we added a couple of the new and old Mopars we own. We installed a vortech supercharger on the SRT8 with some American Racing headers and tuned it ourselves via computer/tuner. It's a blast to drive! The Charger will hopefully be just as fun to drive after we are done with it!

[firefighter3931]

Wow, that's a great looking Charger Luke ! 

The build looks good for the mostpart but i'd use a different cam. The Comp XE285HL would be my choice for a street bruiser at 500ci. At 6000ft elevation you can certainly use the flat top pistons and run 11.5:1 static compression. I specced that cam for Brian's (1HotDaytona) old 493 pump gas build that he had in his 68 Charger and he loved it. Ran like a freight train from idle to redline 

Intake manifold ; Performer RPM or Holley Street Dominator
Carburator ; Proform 950 cfm double pumper

The 2in TTI's are fine and i'd use their 3in x-pipe exhaust system with a set of UltraFlow mufflers.

That combo should make close to 600hp and over 600ftlbs of torque and give your pro-charged SRT Challenger a run for it's money....maybe even beat it ! 



Ron

[tan top]

  nice looking 70 charger 

[2Luke2]

Wow, that's a great looking Charger Luke ! 

The build looks good for the mostpart but i'd use a different cam. The Comp XE285HL would be my choice for a street bruiser at 500ci. At 6000ft elevation you can certainly use the flat top pistons and run 11.5:1 static compression. I specced that cam for Brian's (1HotDaytona) old 493 pump gas build that he had in his 68 Charger and he loved it. Ran like a freight train from idle to redline 

Intake manifold ; Performer RPM or Holley Street Dominator
Carburator ; Proform 950 cfm double pumper

The 2in TTI's are fine and i'd use their 3in x-pipe exhaust system with a set of UltraFlow mufflers.

That combo should make close to 600hp and over 600ftlbs of torque and give your pro-charged SRT Challenger a run for it's money....maybe even beat it ! 



Ron

Ron, we would like to thank you for your reply. We have posted on a couple boards and have met with a lot of what seemed like negative attitudes which seemed to be from racers or shops that like to discourage people from trying to do it on their own and learn something in the process.

I forgot to post it, but we planned on grabbing the Edelbrock RPM intake.

The carb we will definitely check out your suggestion. Not a lot of experience here picking carbs, but curious as to why a race carb as opposed to a street carb. mech/vac secondaries. Also I would figure We would go for an 850 as opposed to a 950 using the CFM=CID X RPM X VE ÷ 3456 formula. Again I'm mostly speaking from what I read/hear so take it with a grain of salt. I just mostly want to learn why.

We are definitely looking at the tti x-pipe, but haven't made a decision there yet.

We're trying to get some information about the distributors/wires from CustomWireSets.com. I'm not sure what wire set to get and didn't see the distributors at all. We have a MSD 6AL2 box already, but we aren't sure if we should sell it and grab a ready to run or use it with another distributor.

Anyway thank you again we appreciate it a lot!

-LnL

[2Luke2]

nice looking 70 charger 

Thanks! We got it because of the color lol... It's not a show car when you get close, but we are going to drive it daily so... we are fine with that. 

[firefighter3931]

Luke, you're welcome. 

Most shops want to sell you parts and mark them up....no secret there. 

From my experience many shops don't have a clue when it comes to BB Mopar stuff. Have a look in the proven combo's section for some ideas on engine builds with corresponding dyno numbers. It's not rocket science as most shops would have you believe. 

I've reconfigured many "pro-shop" builds for members here that have run like poop....and come up with engine recipes that just flat out work for those starting from scratch. 

If you're interested in the FireCore product line I can help you out....I am a dealer for Firecore and would be glad to answer any questions you might have. 


Ron

[PlainfieldCharger]

Ron is most responsible for many worn tires across our North America roadway Thanks Ron, my car is running incredible    Kevin

[2Luke2]

Yes Ron, I would love to get a set of wires and distributor, but unless we find a good price on a few of the parts we need it's going to be awhile before we are ready for either of those. I will contact you when we are ready though.


Kevin, we would love to be on that list.

[2Luke2]

Ron is the 300-14 the part number for the street dominator you recommended?

Thanks!

[elacruze]

Here's my 505 build-still ongoing of course-

I built it with 3 requirements, in this order;

1. Never overheats or fouls plugs, even in hours of summer stop-and-go traffic. *win*
2. Drivability. My GF has to be able to drive it. No weird stumbles or soft spots, or 'camminess'. *win*
3. Make it as fast as possible given 1 & 2. *win*

I've been on 2 HR Power Tours, approaching 10k miles and haven't had a single regret. The engine pulls from idle to redline, hard. Drivability is near-factory quality. Doesn't get hot in traffic even with A/C on. She'll roast the tires in 2nd gear on the throttle.

To the point; I live at sea level, but the engine seems to like 1500-3000 feet of altitude for some reason, perhaps there's a little unheard detonation. I'm at 10.6:1, and if you rarely or never come below 3000 feet, I'd say 12:1 is ok, but if you aren't worried about your 1/4 mile times you don't need it.

[Kern Dog]

I ran the Comp XE285HL in my 493 in the Charger. Good cam, decent power, but if I were to go with another Comp cam, I may make the jump to the XE294 and use my 1.6 rocker arms. This would bump me to .553/.558 lift with a later intake closing. I've been dealing with detonation and a later intake closing is what I'm told will help.

[Dino]

If you are not going to run the A/C then remove it, clean it up and store it.  It's better than having it sit in the car and do nothing, that won't do it any good.  Besides, why run a belt on the compressor when it's not going to be used?

As for your brakes, a hydrobooster would be ideal for your build as it runs off the power steering so you don't need vacuum.  Do a search for it on this site, several members are running one.

[firefighter3931]

Ron is the 300-14 the part number for the street dominator you recommended?

Thanks!

Yep, that's the one....excellent manifold ! A bit lower than the RPM which allows you to run a phenolic spacer and drop base aircleaner under the factory hood. The spacer is a must have to prevent vapor lock and fuel boiling. 

The XE285HL will work fine with the RPM cylinder heads....no need to swap any parts. I'd recommend a 1.5:1 rocker ratio with this cam to keep the valvetrain stable. The Crane Gold rockers fit perfectly with the RPM heads and have outstanding geometry when used in that application. 

As for the Pro-form 950 ; lets just say it flat out works on a 500in combination. I've recommended that one for a couple of 500in builds. Mike Roberts built a very mild 505 a few years back and when he had the motor dynoed at Ray Barton's shop they were amazed at how well the carb ran right out of the box. The AFR's were spot on with no re-jetting required. 

Here is Mike's build :  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html

No rush on te ignition parts....we can look at that when you get closer to installing the new powerplant. 



Ron

[2Luke2]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions and recommendations. We probably going to order the rest of the short block next week because that's when the stroker kit will be here. We will surely post pictures as we go!

[2Luke2]

Can anyone help me decide what kind of timing chain I need? I found some that aren't adjustable all the way up to some with 3 or 9 way adjustments? I would like to degree the cam, but I'm not sure I need a crazy timing chain if I do. Any help would be appreciated. Also while I'm here begging... haha... A set of comp cam hydraulic lifters should be fine for what I'm doing? I don't need to order any trick oil through ones do I? I was looking at both the high energy lifters and the pro magnum ones.

I'm most likely going to stick with the cam Ron recommended or one another person recommended. XE285HL or  XE294H

[firefighter3931]

Ron is most responsible for many worn tires across our North America roadway Thanks Ron, my car is running incredible    Kevin

You're welcome Kevin. 

Glad to hear it's running well ! 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Can anyone help me decide what kind of timing chain I need? I found some that aren't adjustable all the way up to some with 3 or 9 way adjustments? I would like to degree the cam, but I'm not sure I need a crazy timing chain if I do. Any help would be appreciated. Also while I'm here begging... haha... A set of comp cam hydraulic lifters should be fine for what I'm doing? I don't need to order any trick oil through ones do I? I was looking at both the high energy lifters and the pro magnum ones.

I'm most likely going to stick with the cam Ron recommended or one another person recommended. XE285HL or  XE294H

The Comp Roller timing sets are very good and i've had excellent results using them. For a build like yours this is the one i would use :  http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3104/overview/make/dodge


Lifters i would suggest a set of the Johnson hy-lift hydraulic tappets : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95605.0.html



Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron, if you lived any where near close to us we would hug you.

Thanks again for the help. It's very much appreciated! I'm sure it's not the last question we will ask, but it definitely puts us in the right direction for purchasing parts as we save the money to do so.

As a side note, I personally do large scale computer work for a living mostly databases, but I've done everything from nitrogen cooled super computer mainframes to desktop PCs. Both for large government organizations to huge private corporations.  If you ever need anything even as small as helping rid your computer of a virus please let me know and I will surely do whatever I can to help. My woman is a chemistry professor and she said she will offer you her help too as long as it's not to make any kind of LSD.


-LnL(Lisa and Luke)

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome Luke....allways glad to help. 

It's very satisfying when enthusiasts get their cars running properly and they're happy with the outcome.    Like you, i am a troubleshooter and enjoy the challenge. Lets face it ; parts are not cheap and making the wrong choices can be expensive.    I'd rather see a Charger nut get it right on the first attempt instead of banging their head on the wall wondering what's wrong 

My woman is a chemistry professor and she said she will offer you her help too as long as it's not to make any kind of LSD.

Now that is funny    No LSD here....just the odd  every now and then   



Ron

[2Luke2]

Agreed. Since it's so expensive to rebuild one of these performer engines we just don't want to get the wrong parts or overdue something to a race level that is unnecessary, but we are all for spending the money to get it right the first time.

Ron would this chain work as well since the cam shaft you suggested is 3 bolt?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3125/overview/

[heyoldguy]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

[firefighter3931]

Agreed. Since it's so expensive to rebuild one of these performer engines we just don't want to get the wrong parts or overdue something to a race level that is unnecessary, but we are all for spending the money to get it right the first time.

Ron would this chain work as well since the cam shaft you suggested is 3 bolt?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3125/overview/

Luke, the XE285HL is a 1 bolt upper gear camshaft 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-21-228-4/overview/make/dodge


Ron

[firefighter3931]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

Jim, are you saying that 11.5:1 with the XE285HL & a tight quench closed chamber aluminum head won't run on pump premium at a mile of elevation ?

The compression could allways be lowered to 10.5:1 but inmo that wouldn't be necessary. 


Ron

[2Luke2]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

I'm sorry sir, but could you refer me to what advice you're referring to? I feel as though you feel like I disrespected you because of your need to post this here. My intentions were not to do that, but to get more opinions. If I took the word of the first car salesman on the internet I probably wouldn't end up getting what I really wanted. My apologies if you do feel that way.

[2Luke2]

Ron, would you recommend the Indy EZ heads over the Edelbrock RPMs? I asked because I was looking up some flow numbers and it seems out of the box the EZs are a bit better. I know they cost a bit more, but since I'm running them out of the box I figured it might be worth it to spend the extra money up front. What do you think?

[heyoldguy]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

Jim, are you saying that 11.5:1 with the XE285HL & a tight quench closed chamber aluminum head won't run on pump premium at a mile of elevation ?

The compression could allways be lowered to 10.5:1 but inmo that wouldn't be necessary. 


Ron

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

[heyoldguy]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

I'm sorry sir, but could you refer me to what advice you're referring to? I feel as though you feel like I disrespected you because of your need to post this here. My intentions were not to do that, but to get more opinions. If I took the word of the first car salesman on the internet I probably wouldn't end up getting what I really wanted. My apologies if you do feel that way.

I felt no disrespect towards me. I have not been trying to protect myself, but you and your money. How much horsepower will you lose by dropping one point of compression? If you are at 600 HP and you drop one point you will make something like 578-582 horsepower. What does just 500 HP on the street feel like? How much do you really need to get a thrill? What is safe?

You are welcome to do as you wish. I just wanted you to think, "Am I being practical? Or have I already decided my course of action and just looking for someone to verify what I already believe." Its okay to wrestle with detonation if you wish but you can have grundles of horsepower and really be safe. I live on the edge with 11.9:1, iron heads, .160" "quench" (?) and 91 octane. Never again for me, never again.

I can answer you OOTB air flows on the Edelbrock RPM and the Indy EZ as I have tested both on the same flowbench.

Lift......................EZ.................RPM

.100....................66 cfm..........74 cfm
.200...................127..............149
.300...................181..............211
.400...................232..............253
.500...................272..............280
.600...................299..............292
.700...................315..............292

No, I do not have the flows reversed. The EZ stinks OOTB unless it is ported. If you intended to run OOTB the RPM is a superior head for a cam to .600" lift.

Bye-the-bye, if you switch to the EZ and change nothing else, your compression would go from 11.539:1 to 12.602:1! The EZ has a 75cc combustion chamber.

[fy469rtse]

  :popcrn:Jeeze I wish I had asked Ron  about my build before I started, damn, found this site well after building my engine,
Question for Ron and others can chip in too , any one used the Victor junior heads and victor intake, comparable flow numbers to indy's esp with a little bit of port work , it might just be another option for top end of his build

[heyoldguy]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

[firefighter3931]

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

You make some valid points Jim  The power difference between 11.5 & 10.5 is minimal. I was just referencing Luke's elevation at 6000ft and that he may occasionally drive down to 5000ft but that the car would be driven at higher elevation all the time. Would it be safe at sea level with that displacement/cam/static compression....probably not. I was thinking if he ever did plan to drive closer to sea level he could simply splash some 110 into the gas tank...

I know Brian's 493 ran great with that cam and 11:1 compression at 1000ft elevation in Iowa.

My 572 with a 4.50 bore runs fine with 10.75:1 at sea level on 91 pump swill.

I do hear what you're saying though and agree that 10.5:1 with tight quench and a closed chamber aluminum head would be absolutely safe at any elevation 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron, would you recommend the Indy EZ heads over the Edelbrock RPMs? I asked because I was looking up some flow numbers and it seems out of the box the EZs are a bit better. I know they cost a bit more, but since I'm running them out of the box I figured it might be worth it to spend the extra money up front. What do you think?

For what you're wanting to do the RPM head is a better choice. The std port window will make killer torque and have fantastic throttle response from idle to redline. The EZ heads are nice but you need to open the intake ports up to max wedge size in order to get them to shine.

On a mild street motor, velocity is the most critical factor....especially at lower engine speeds. The larger the ports, the slower the airspeed. It will make less peak power with the RPM head vs a max wedge EZ head but the torque curve will be much stronger and more responsive to throttle input. 

Out of the box....the RPM is the better choice, inmo. 


Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

You make some valid points Jim  The power difference between 11.5 & 10.5 is minimal. I was just referencing Luke's elevation at 6000ft and that he may occasionally drive down to 5000ft but that the car would be driven at higher elevation all the time. Would it be safe at sea level with that displacement/cam/static compression....probably not. I was thinking if he ever did plan to drive closer to sea level he could simply splash some 110 into the gas tank...

I know Brian's 493 ran great with that cam and 11:1 compression at 1000ft elevation in Iowa.

My 572 with a 4.50 bore runs fine with 10.75:1 at sea level on 91 pump swill.

I do hear what you're saying though and agree that 10.5:1 with tight quench and a closed chamber aluminum head would be absolutely safe at any elevation 


Ron

OldGuy thanks for the detailed information. I do very much appreciate it.

Ron, I will stick with the RPM head and check to see if it's too late to go to a lower compression piston. I ordered the stroker kit and it was waiting on pistons. If it is too late; then would I be ok just going to an 88cc head and a larger gasket or should I just send the pistons back and ask for a different one?

I think it would be a better idea as OldGuy pointed out to rule on the safe side and go with a lower compression. I will try to shoot for a point lower at 10.5. I will update tomorrow after I call Hughes up to see if I can swap the pistons before they ship.

Thanks again!

[fy469rtse]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

sorry late at night abreiviating  especially , edelbrock victor juniors , great flow numbers out of the box , just wanted Ron thoughts , , also want link to see Rons car , can always see his engine but don't know if he posted his ride, picturing bright red with a Dalmatian in the passenger seat lol it'd
S got to be one tough looking ride

[firefighter3931]

OldGuy thanks for the detailed information. I do very much appreciate it.

Ron, I will stick with the RPM head and check to see if it's too late to go to a lower compression piston. I ordered the stroker kit and it was waiting on pistons. If it is too late; then would I be ok just going to an 88cc head and a larger gasket or should I just send the pistons back and ask for a different one?

I think it would be a better idea as OldGuy pointed out to rule on the safe side and go with a lower compression. I will try to shoot for a point lower at 10.5. I will update tomorrow after I call Hughes up to see if I can swap the pistons before they ship.

Thanks again!

Hey Luke, if they haven't shipped your kit then it's definately not too late to change the piston option.  What you want is a piston with a 15cc Dish (inverted dome) to achieve the target compression ratio. Using an 84cc chamber at zero deck with a .040 head gasket you have perfect quench and 10.5:1 static compression. See if they have something available in the 15-16cc range with that rotating assembly. 

You do not want to use the 88cc head. That is an open chamber design and you would lose your tight quench and be prone to detonation. 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

sorry late at night abreiviating  especially , edelbrock victor juniors , great flow numbers out of the box , just wanted Ron thoughts , , also want link to see Rons car , can always see his engine but don't know if he posted his ride, picturing bright red with a Dalmatian in the passenger seat lol it'd
S got to be one tough looking ride

The Victors are descent but there are some installation headaches that you wouldn't experience using an Indy EZ. Like the EZ it is more of a race head and to make them shine you really need to open the intake ports to max wedge. 

The things i don't like about the Victors ;

- rediculously high intake ports which in turn raises the intake manifold and limits hood clearance.
- few rocker arm options because of the big offset on the intake valve.
- Early production Victors had issues with the valvecover rail which was machined too small and caused sealing issues and rocker arm interferance with some valvecovers.

In the end i went with the CNC Indy EZ 295cc castings on the 572 which is a pump gas build. I like the fact that i could use my Harland Sharp rockers and TTI headers that i had been using with the RPM heads. The T&D roller rockers are $1000 and i didn't see the need to replace a perfectly good set of rocker arms. My exhaust was configured around a standard ex port location so i wasn't about to swap in another set of $1000 headers.


Here is a pic of the Black Pig at Pinks all out in Bristol 


Ron

[heyoldguy]

Ron, What I said was don't take it below 6000'. The deal is, we're takin' it to the edge, and there are so many people struggling with compression ratios between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 and there is no reason to. Backing the compression down to a safe ratio at something other than 6000' feet will not sacrifice enough power to warrant the struggle that so many people have. You and I can figure a way to run almost any compression we want, at any elevation we want. But that engine, in the form recommended, will at a lower elevation be a heartache.

You make some valid points Jim   The power difference between 11.5 & 10.5 is minimal. I was just referencing Luke's elevation at 6000ft and that he may occasionally drive down to 5000ft but that the car would be driven at higher elevation all the time. Would it be safe at sea level with that displacement/cam/static compression....probably not. I was thinking if he ever did plan to drive closer to sea level he could simply splash some 110 into the gas tank...

I know Brian's 493 ran great with that cam and 11:1 compression at 1000ft elevation in Iowa.

My 572 with a 4.50 bore runs fine with 10.75:1 at sea level on 91 pump swill.

I do hear what you're saying though and agree that 10.5:1 with tight quench and a closed chamber aluminum head would be absolutely safe at any elevation  


Ron

You sweet talker you. I have the greatest respect for your opinions. I think your head evaluations you've made are spot on here. Don't you sell the Firecore distributors? At this point of time in my life, I find them to be the easiest to finely tune of any I have used.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the kind words Jim, much appreciated. Just know that the feeling is mutual and your engine masters record speaks for itself. 

Yes, I am one of Rick's dealers for the Firecore product line and field a lot of tech questions for the company. We are good buddies and are Firefighter brothers. Rick has worked very hard to build this company and i'm very proud to be one of his representatives. 

It's nice when a product truly delivers as advertised and i feel 100% confident in recommending them to friends and family. The new billet distributors look and more importantly.... work fantastic and as you know are very user friendly. 

Glad we came to an agreement on Luke's static compression dilemma 


Ron

[2Luke2]

I agree now I can worry about 1 million other questions we will most likely have. I'm at a client's site today so I didn't get a chance to call this morning. I will be able to call in a few hours and see if they are able to swap the pistons before they ship. Hopefully it will be that easy. I saw they had a set of -13 and -14.3 dished pistons on their site, but hopefully they will have something in the 15-16 range as you suggested.  Thanks again to both of you.

[2Luke2]

Ok so I called Hughes and they don't have anything in a non custom piston in the -15 -16 range. So would it be the same thing to drop to a -26cc piston and a 75cc e-head? I could even get the head shaved if I needed to up it from the 10.3 it would turn out to be with the .039 gasket or maybe even use the .20 gasket?

[heyoldguy]

Hang on. You haven't been abandoned. I've been up to my armpits in alligators trying to get this 532 Hemi on the dyno by Monday.

[firefighter3931]

Luke, I would call Hughes and have them order the custom pistons for your build. Usually, a custom set of slugs will run $150-$200 extra and that is money well spent. 

Build it right the first time and don't look back ! 


Ron

[fy469rtse]

Big block Victor juniors? Indy esp?

sorry late at night abreiviating  especially , edelbrock victor juniors , great flow numbers out of the box , just wanted Ron thoughts , , also want link to see Rons car , can always see his engine but don't know if he posted his ride, picturing bright red with a Dalmatian in the passenger seat lol it'd
S got to be one tough looking ride

The Victors are descent but there are some installation headaches that you wouldn't experience using an Indy EZ. Like the EZ it is more of a race head and to make them shine you really need to open the intake ports to max wedge. 

The things i don't like about the Victors ;

- rediculously high intake ports which in turn raises the intake manifold and limits hood clearance.
- few rocker arm options because of the big offset on the intake valve.
- Early production Victors had issues with the valvecover rail which was machined too small and caused sealing issues and rocker arm interferance with some valvecovers.

In the end i went with the CNC Indy EZ 295cc castings on the 572 which is a pump gas build. I like the fact that i could use my Harland Sharp rockers and TTI headers that i had been using with the RPM heads. The T&D roller rockers are $1000 and i didn't see the need to replace a perfectly good set of rocker arms. My exhaust was configured around a standard ex port location so i wasn't about to swap in another set of $1000 headers.


Here is a pic of the Black Pig at Pinks all out in Bristol  Very nice car Ron, would not describe it as a black pig, yes like I said , wish I had you to talk things through, had to deal with all those issues you outlined, on the other side now and resolved , thought it was just me and inexperienced , always the case when you start modifying ,getting parts to mate
Ron

[firefighter3931]

Very nice car Ron, would not describe it as a black pig, yes like I said , wish I had you to talk things through, had to deal with all those issues you outlined, on the other side now and resolved , thought it was just me and inexperienced , always the case when you start modifying ,getting parts to mate

Thanks ! I call it the Black Pig because it's a 4000lb street car that thinks it's a race car 

Good to hear you got things sorted out....there is a solution to every problem but some solutions just cost more than others. Just part of the learning curve 


Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron, here's the pan we stripped 3 coats of paint off of... This is what we are planning on trying to reuse hopefully. Still need to find an oil pickup though.

[firefighter3931]

That oilpan looks fine Luke.....with a  6qt capacity and descent baffles it should work good in conjunction with the windage tray 


Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron I took another look at our oil pickup and there are some holes down around where the screen is at. I'm not even going to worry about it and just get a new one. I would hate for another chunk or something to break away and be the beginning to a bearing failure or blocked oil passage.

As for an update we should get our rotating assembly this week and hopefully to the machine shop for them to finish the bore/hone/decking. Then we can start mocking up the assembly and checking for clearances and what not. We are still about 4,500k short on parts so it's still going to be a bit while we wait for funds. We did get our heads, intake, lifters, cam, chain, and gaskets in though so we got a good chunk of the big parts.

Though we did have a question about our Edelbrock heads. We took them out of the box to fit a set of rockers on them and noticed there is a lot of excess material where the machine didn't clean up after itself(We can post pictures if you want to see what I'm talking about). I could definitely see this being an issue as stuff breaks off and then ends up somewhere else in the engine. So we thought we could take a stiff wire brush and just try to brush off the excess aluminum, but we wanted to ask if that was the best way to handle it.

Also we wanted to know if we should just have someone clean them up a bit for us. Obviously that would cost more money and we aren't talking about a full out port job, but just to look and clean them up so they aren't so rough. We aren't sure what someone would charge for something like that so any estimates that anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

The water pump we got from Hughes we sent back and we are going to order the Mancini kit once the funds hit the card again. It definitely was the same pump/housing that 440 source is selling so anyone looking at buying that one you now know. It's stamped with PRW instead of 440source and that's the only difference.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Luke,

If the pickup is suspect then it's best to purchase a new one that matches the contours of the original. They're cheap enough and it's not worth taking a risk assuming yours is in the condition as described 

As for the heads, what you're seeing is casting flash. It wouldn't hurt to take them to your machine shop and have them inspect the heads. Have the castings cleaned up and have them check the valve guide clearance. Sometimes they come a little too tight and the guides might need some minor honing to open them up a tad. 

I allways have any new cylinder head checked out. Mass produced parts sometimes need a little TLC 



Ron

[cdr]

i dont see any #s on that oil pan,but i think it is to deep at the rear section,ie the drag link will rub on the pan.

[2Luke2]

Hi Luke,

If the pickup is suspect then it's best to purchase a new one that matches the contours of the original. They're cheap enough and it's not worth taking a risk assuming yours is in the condition as described 

As for the heads, what you're seeing is casting flash. It wouldn't hurt to take them to your machine shop and have them inspect the heads. Have the castings cleaned up and have them check the valve guide clearance. Sometimes they come a little too tight and the guides might need some minor honing to open them up a tad. 

I allways have any new cylinder head checked out. Mass produced parts sometimes need a little TLC 



Ron

Thanks Ron, I took the heads to the machine shop today. They checked the valves and spring pressures and also the flash I saw. They most mass produced ones come with a little extra, but are pretty easy to clean up. So that should be good to go.

Definitely going to get a new oil pickup though, just wanted to make sure I get the right one. I seen a few sites that are claiming to have stroker only pickups. The current one I have is this one. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mooilpiandsc.html. So I just wanted to get the right one.

[2Luke2]

i dont see any #s on that oil pan,but i think it is to deep at the rear section,ie the drag link will rub on the pan.

Yep I noticed it didn't have any numbers, but it doesn't sit any lower than the k-frame. No idea what brand of pan it is, but it's in pretty good shape. Just needs a little paint now that we cleaned it up. Thanks for the picture though. The help is appreciated.

[cdr]

neither does this one,its not at the k frame that is the problem look at the picture. the oil pan is rubbing on the steering link

[cdr]

this looks like the same pan you have

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,45582.msg498418.html#msg498418

[2Luke2]

I'm not sure why we would have a problem though. We took the pan off the motor that was in the car. it was painted with at least 3 layers of paint and about as many layers of dirt and oil on top of that. we just stipped it down to the metal. There wasn't any pait missing or damage on the pan that looked like it was rubbing. Please let me know if I'm missing something CDR? We would hate to get it all together only to find out it needs to come apart for the pan to be modified or replaced haha...

[cdr]

sorry, i thought you had gotten a different pan,if it was clearing before it should clear again ,i wasn't trying to be a pain in the a$$ ,by the way i really like your car.

[2Luke2]

No problem at all CDR, I thought I was just blind and didn't see what you were seeing. I'd rather double and triple check so I appreciate the advice either way.

Thanks again!

[2Luke2]

So I got my stroker kit from Hughes yesterday. I had them do the race balance, but now I'm thinking that was a bad idea because the crank needs to be ground or I need to buy X bearings. So I'm thinking after they grind it to spec they probably need to balance it again. What do you guys think? Should I have it ground it buy different bearings?

[cdr]

i am confused,it should be ready to run,it all needs to be checked,but should be good to go.

[cdr]

the kit should come with bearings

[2Luke2]

Well I had the machine shop look yesterday and they said that it either needs to be ground to spec or needs different bearings. Which sucks because that's why I paid them extra to balance it and they said it would be ready to drop in. Then I get to my machine shop and they say the crank is out of spec and needs to be ground or we need X bearings. It's an Eagle crankshaft and I have heard they have needed work. I think I will call them today and found out if it was under or over.

The kit did come with bearings, but apparently they aren't the right size according to the machine shop after they measured the crank.

Ok, just got off the phone with the machine shop and he said the crank is just a little on the high side and he would like to see another .001 of oil clearance. He said I could either grab a set of these X bearings or maybe a half set of bearings and make the adjustment like that.

[68CoronetRT]

Just thought I'd chime in and say that the only reason my motor runs today is due to Ron's help!!

Ok back to your normal thread broadcasting....

[firefighter3931]

Well I had the machine shop look yesterday and they said that it either needs to be ground to spec or needs different bearings. Which sucks because that's why I paid them extra to balance it and they said it would be ready to drop in. Then I get to my machine shop and they say the crank is out of spec and needs to be ground or we need X bearings. It's an Eagle crankshaft and I have heard they have needed work. I think I will call them today and found out if it was under or over.

The kit did come with bearings, but apparently they aren't the right size according to the machine shop after they measured the crank.

Ok, just got off the phone with the machine shop and he said the crank is just a little on the high side and he would like to see another .001 of oil clearance. He said I could either grab a set of these X bearings or maybe a half set of bearings and make the adjustment like that.

Luke,

What is the current bearing clearance and how much does the machinist want you to have ? 

I wouldn't do anything just yet because if there is a problem you should be contacting Hughes and having them fix it. 



Ron

[69charger440]

I agree with RON!!! Hughes would fix it. What did the crank measure out to be?

[2Luke2]

Sorry I forgot to update this. The machine shop said it was right in the middle of the spec. He was just hoping for another .001 of clearance for oil. I will call him in a bit and see what the actual reading was, but he's a good guy and isn't trying to get me to spend money for no reason. He just wants to make sure I'm safe, which I appreciate.

[2Luke2]

Alright I got a hold of him today. He said the mains were .003 under and the rods were just under .002 under. He said he would like to see a bit more on the rods, but should be ok for the street. What do you guys think?

[firefighter3931]

I agree with the machinist ; perfectly acceptable for a street engine. If it were going to be more strip than street i'd want the rod clearances a little looser. 

Mine are at .025 on the mains & rods but mine sees a lot of strip time. 


Ron

[2Luke2]

I agree with the machinist ; perfectly acceptable for a street engine. If it were going to be more strip than street i'd want the rod clearances a little looser. 

Mine are at .025 on the mains & rods but mine sees a lot of strip time. 


Ron

Awesome! I'm really happy with my machine guy... he is super nice and easy going and loves to talk shop. I never have to beg for information or reasons why he is always forth coming with information. The only thing he regrets is that the shop doesn't have all the pretty machines he would like to work with. Either way the work should be done soon and with a bit more time we should be gathering up the rest of the parts. Then pictures, pictures, pictures!

[john108]

I agree with the machinist ; perfectly acceptable for a street engine. If it were going to be more strip than street i'd want the rod clearances a little looser. 

Mine are at .025 on the mains & rods but mine sees a lot of strip time. 


Ron

TYPO??

[2Luke2]

I agree with the machinist ; perfectly acceptable for a street engine. If it were going to be more strip than street i'd want the rod clearances a little looser. 

Mine are at .025 on the mains & rods but mine sees a lot of strip time. 


Ron

TYPO??

I'd hope so haha!

[2Luke2]

I have talked to Ron about a converter and I understand the need for one, but the cost doesn't really make sense in my opinion and I wanted to see what you guys though. The stock 727 will most likely fail pretty quickly behind our new stroker motor with a little bit of convincing. Well not knowing I thought he had a stock torque convert, but I actually found a part number on it today and found out that we have this 10" off the shelf B&M converter. It supposed to be near factory stall though so for the most part I would expect it to act similar to having a stock stall.

http://www.jegs.com/i/B%26M/130/10415/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710681762&catargetid=1784156778&cadevice=c&&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CPKEsN--y7gCFY4WMgod3XUAJQ

WHEN the transmission does fail we were looking at either getting a new one from Cope Racing ,but instead of buying parts for this one we thought the money would be better spent on a new one. We were also throwing around the idea of converting the car to a 4 speed just due to the fact that we LOVE the pistol grip shift. I know this isn't an easy task, but it's nothing we aren't willing to take on.

So I guess the question we need opinions on is should we invest is a torque converter now knowing that we plan on switching over to a 4 speed in the near future or save the money towards our 4 speed conversion?

If we don't do the 4 speed conversion we are for sure getting a transmission with a reverse manual valve body with low band apply. Would this change the stall we would want as well?

The purpose of this vehicle is for daily driving and grins ear to ear when weather/traffic permitting.

[firefighter3931]

I agree with the machinist ; perfectly acceptable for a street engine. If it were going to be more strip than street i'd want the rod clearances a little looser. 

Mine are at .025 on the mains & rods but mine sees a lot of strip time. 


Ron

TYPO??

I'd hope so haha!

Dang....i did it again ! That's twice in the last month 

I meant two and a half thousandths....not twenty five thousandths 



Ron

[GPULLER]

I agree with the machinist ; perfectly acceptable for a street engine. If it were going to be more strip than street i'd want the rod clearances a little looser. 

Mine are at .025 on the mains & rods but mine sees a lot of strip time. 


Ron

TYPO??

I'd hope so haha!

Dang....i did it again ! That's twice in the last month 

I meant two and a half thousandths....not twenty five thousandths 



Ron

Well that would defiantly leave enough room for oil! ha ha ha

[2Luke2]

So we just wanted to update the thread. We got the block back yesterday and got it masked off and painted today. First time for us painting a block, but it came out 1000x better than when we got it and we are happy. Lisa thought to keep the block an iron looking color because it looks tough haha. Anyway we were going to paint it black to match the green, but feel this is going to look really good too. Attached some pics for your viewing pleasure!

We are going to chase some threads and then lay the crank and start filing piston rings.

[Challenger340]

Just a quick note here on Vertical Bearing Clearance....
remember...
Vertical bearing Clearance as it relates to Connecting Rod SIDE Clearance should never be overlooked as a "relationship", and precursor to Higher Engine temps during operation... with the Higher Oil temps it can cause leading to eventual bearing failure.


Pressure = HEAT !
The only way the Bearings cool during operation is by the constant...and adequate flow of Oil both IN.....and OUT....of the journal. "Tight" Side Clearance combined with "tight" Vertical clearance can be a recipe for disaster.
Just saying....
.0020" Vertical clearance may be absolutely fine for a street engine...... with.... ADEQUATE Rod side clearance on the journals to allow the heated Oil to leave and fresh oil IN to cool the bearings....but .0020" also can be a source of problems with IN-ADEQUATE rod side clearance...especially on the cheaper Chinese High Radius Filet Cranks requiring narrow bearings, and/or bearing chamfers even to turn over.

IMO, (but check with Hughes as for their opinion also regarding side clearance on .0020" Vertical)
Just make sure with .0020" Vertical bearing clearance, that the rods exhibit a good .016" to .018" side clearance in pairs during assembly.

[2Luke2]

Just a quick note here on Vertical Bearing Clearance....
remember...
Vertical bearing Clearance as it relates to Connecting Rod SIDE Clearance should never be overlooked as a "relationship", and precursor to Higher Engine temps during operation... with the Higher Oil temps it can cause leading to eventual bearing failure.


Pressure = HEAT !
The only way the Bearings cool during operation is by the constant...and adequate flow of Oil both IN.....and OUT....of the journal. "Tight" Side Clearance combined with "tight" Vertical clearance can be a recipe for disaster.
Just saying....
.0020" Vertical clearance may be absolutely fine for a street engine...... with.... ADEQUATE Rod side clearance on the journals to allow the heated Oil to leave and fresh oil IN to cool the bearings....but .0020" also can be a source of problems with IN-ADEQUATE rod side clearance...especially on the cheaper Chinese High Radius Filet Cranks requiring narrow bearings, and/or bearing chamfers even to turn over.

IMO, (but check with Hughes as for their opinion also regarding side clearance on .0020" Vertical)
Just make sure with .0020" Vertical bearing clearance, that the rods exhibit a good .016" to .018" side clearance in pairs during assembly.

Thanks for the advice! I will definitely call Hughes on Monday and get their opinion as well.

[2Luke2]

So I'm assembling my pistons,rods,pins and clips and I wanted to make sure I have this right..

The valve reliefs are near the intake valley. The rods have one side that has a larger chamfer on the big end of the rod. From what I understand that side goes towards the crank or faces away from the companion rod. Do I have that correct?

Also when putting the piston rod/pins/piston together is using assembly lube required for just mocking it up or can I put something like wd40 on it? I ask because I don't want it to get too messy and attract a lot of dirty or anything else that will stick to it.

thanks in advance!

[2Luke2]

So we just wanted to update the thread with some more pictures of our progress. We finally got the motor together and in the car. We still have a lot of work to do, but hopefully you enjoy the pics as much as we do when we are browsing.

[shart70rt]

Looks great - I am nearing the same point on my 70 RT now.
Will install the headers this week with the engine out (2 inch TTI) to check clearance on Lakewood bellhousing. Would rather do any clearancing out of the car. 500 ci also. Had it broken in on dyno, 525 hp, 640 torque. Edelbrock heads and dual 600 chm setup. Dished pistons due to 0 elevation and Texas Gulf Coast heat in summer. Went with a Comp Cam hydraulic roller. Sounds great, and torque maxed out from 3200 to 6000 rpm without any drops.

Hemi 4 speed with 3.54 Dana in the back. Put the Passion Performance Overdrive gear set in the tranny, and beefed up the driveshaft, Dana cover, and U-Joint clamps.

Added sub frame connectors, connector under radiator, and a torque strap to motor mount.

Need to put the front suspension back in, took it all out and had it powder coated go mango to match the car. ave the engine on the K-member now and it looks sweet.

Due to health, progress is slow, but will have it put back together in the next few months.

Stephen