Carter AVS 4640sa rebuild

[bakerhillpins]

So I finally got to my long delayed carb rebuild for my 69 Charger RT Auto with AC. Thus the 4640sa Carter AVS. I was delaying this forever because I knew that the second it came off the intake the car would sit for a month. Experience has proven an accurate predictor once again.    More on that later.

Since I can't ever seem to shake the duties of father/homeowner while at the house what a better way to try to get to rebuilding my carb then to take it with me on vacation. On vacation of course I am away from everything in life that distracts me with the exception of the kids. However, kids are easily amused by grandparents and a swimming pool.  

And thus we start the project.

[bakerhillpins]

However, traveling and amusing kids along the way leads to long days and traveling at night. Thus arrival dad is tired. So much so that he accidentally knocks the box with the carb out of the back of the car. And yes, we start the entire process by generating something to fix.   

Fortunately the fall only bent the idle adjustment screw. It backs out fine and is simply bent. I can find replacements on line so that means that while a PITA its a cheap fix for a dumb mistake.

[bakerhillpins]

The Jiffy kit that I have is cool, it comes with a nice step by step set of instructions. I don't know if they all do or not but I found this one useful.

Pulled off a bunch of linkages and the Air Horn.

[bakerhillpins]

The accelerator pump is way toast.   

[bakerhillpins]

And there was no end to all the dirt and crap that I found in the carb. Recall, I pulled this off my charger last Sat after driving it. All I did was drain the fuel and let it air dry so that it didn't stink up the car.

[bakerhillpins]

The fuel strainer was present and it isn't trashed. In fact it looked pretty good. Wondering if I should pick up a new one anyhow or if I should go to the Sintered Bronze ones since a new one isn't included in the kit?

http://quadrajetparts.com/carter-carburetor-parts-carteredelbrock-afb-avs-parts-afb-avs-fuel-filters-c-299_130_141.html

Though it doesn't feel like it fits snugly within the Fuel inlet fitting. In fact after looking at the strainer seated in the fitting, their combined depth is much less than the depth of the fuel inlet socket on the passenger rear side of the carb.    I bet the strainer fell out of the fitting and was simply loose in the socket. At that point it's not filtering much.  

Is the strainer supposed to be secured inside the fitting somehow to keep it from falling out?

[bakerhillpins]

And this got me to pulling out the jets.  Which didn't go so well.    The passenger side jets came out nice and easy, not so much on the drivers side. The secondary came out but the primary stripped.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,102657.0.html

[bakerhillpins]

So that jet is toast. And this situation brings on a whole raft of other problems/questions:

Problem:
1) They no longer make any "High Step" Carter jets or the 3 stage metering rods and I need a jet.
2) I can't find any info on the jets other than some basic orifice info. Thread specs for instance.
3) If I can't source a replacement High Step jet then I have to rebuild with AFB parts and I can't find anything about a working baseline for the 4640sa with AFB guts.
4) What was the OEM Jetting for the 4640? (including metering/stepping rods)

Anyone have any info with regard to above? I have been googleing for this info for about a day now and can't find any absolute reference info.

I have noted the following:
a) Apparently I CAN use Edelbrock Preformer/Thunder series jets and rods (AFB stuff) in this carb. It SEEMS that the Edelbrock jets for those carbs are 1/4-32 threads but I can't find that specifically stated. Ill have to call Edelbrock I guess.
b) Some good history on the AVS and how to read the Carter jets:
http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/CarterFourBarrelCarburetors.htm
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546779  (quote below from shop above)

A few words on Carter jets:

Carter had several different series of metering jets (at least 4 different series which were used on the AFB carbs). The earlier 2 series are not coded. You have to look up the number on the jet to determine the original diameter (however, remember that many hot rodders will drill jets). NEVER TRUST THE NUMBER ON A JET UNLESS YOU JUST REMOVED IT FROM A SEALED PACKAGE!

The third series jets began with part number 120-350 (DO NOT USE THE FOLLOWING FOR LOWER NUMBERED JETS). The 120 is a code number for metering jet. For jets with number 350 and above the last 3 digits represent the jet diameter plus 0.300.

Examples:

120-389 would be a jet of diameter 0.089 (389 - 300 = 89)
120-410 would be a jet of diameter 0.110 (410 - 300 = 110)

The fourth series jet is the high step jet used for primaries on a few AFB's used on Chryslers, and the AVS series carbs. This series differs in that the subtrahend is 400.

Example:

120-510 is a high step jet of diameter 0.110 (510 - 400 = 110)

DO NOT INTERCHANGE THE HIGH STEP JETS AND NORMAL JETS. The high step jets require a different length metering rod.

c) Found a few pages that talk about rebuilding and using the AFB parts but nothing about what to use since it's all application dependent.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/mopp_0305_carter_avs_carburetor_install/viewall.html

[bakerhillpins]

Here are the jets that were in the carb. According to the quote above we have a primary of .101 and a secondary of .095.

The FSM and Parts manuals don't give any info as to what was OEM for these carbs. Anyone have any Carter manuals?

[bakerhillpins]

Sweet. Just found Carter Manuals.  

http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Carter/Chrysler/1965-1979/

The OEM specs and info for the 4640sa..  So I have the factory standard setup with .101 primaries and .095 secondaries.  Will need to check my stepup rods but I suspect they are all good.

[bakerhillpins]

Got the stuck jet dealt with and can now continue on with the rebuild. I guess I should spend some time answering my own questions for those that find this thread in the future. 

Problem:
1) They no longer make any "High Step" Carter jets or the 3 stage metering rods and I need a jet.
2) I can't find any info on the jets other than some basic orifice info. Thread specs for instance.
3) If I can't source a replacement High Step jet then I have to rebuild with AFB parts and I can't find anything about a working baseline for the 4640sa with AFB guts.
4) What was the OEM Jetting for the 4640? (including metering/stepping rods)

1) The Carter AVS Primary jets are currently made of unobtainium. I had to buy a junk 68 440 AVS carb to get a set of primary jets and metering rods.
2) The thread specs for a Carter (AVS/AFB) is 5/16-24. Drill size with a 5/16-24 tap (9/32).
3) Didn't go to the AFB guts as I solved my problem. I suppose I could give it a shot sometime.
4) OEM jetting is as stated above :  .101 primaries and .095 secondaries. Carter #s 501 and 120-395 respectively. It seems that this was the stock setting for all 440 AVS equipped cars in 68-69.

[bakerhillpins]

With respect to the fuel strainer..  When I pulled the 4428 AVS unit apart I pulled the strainer out of that unit as well. It is also "short". New parts quote .8" length and both strainers I have seem to be that.  Problem is, when I measure the depth of the fuel inlet port on the carb and subtract out the depth of the inlet fitting the length is greater than that of the strainer. So the strainer will end up falling out of the fitting??? Not really going to filter anything at that point   What am I missing, is this correct?

Also, should I use lubricate the rods that hold the butterflies where they pass through the carb body, or should those just be left dry?

[bee1971]

So that jet is toast. And this situation brings on a whole raft of other problems/questions:

Problem:
1) They no longer make any "High Step" Carter jets or the 3 stage metering rods and I need a jet.
2) I can't find any info on the jets other than some basic orifice info. Thread specs for instance.
3) If I can't source a replacement High Step jet then I have to rebuild with AFB parts and I can't find anything about a working baseline for the 4640sa with AFB guts.
4) What was the OEM Jetting for the 4640? (including metering/stepping rods)

Anyone have any info with regard to above? I have been googleing for this info for about a day now and can't find any absolute reference info.

I have noted the following:
a) Apparently I CAN use Edelbrock Preformer/Thunder series jets and rods (AFB stuff) in this carb. It SEEMS that the Edelbrock jets for those carbs are 1/4-32 threads but I can't find that specifically stated. Ill have to call Edelbrock I guess.
b) Some good history on the AVS and how to read the Carter jets:
http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/CarterFourBarrelCarburetors.htm
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546779  (quote below from shop above)

A few words on Carter jets:

Carter had several different series of metering jets (at least 4 different series which were used on the AFB carbs). The earlier 2 series are not coded. You have to look up the number on the jet to determine the original diameter (however, remember that many hot rodders will drill jets). NEVER TRUST THE NUMBER ON A JET UNLESS YOU JUST REMOVED IT FROM A SEALED PACKAGE!

The third series jets began with part number 120-350 (DO NOT USE THE FOLLOWING FOR LOWER NUMBERED JETS). The 120 is a code number for metering jet. For jets with number 350 and above the last 3 digits represent the jet diameter plus 0.300.

Examples:

120-389 would be a jet of diameter 0.089 (389 - 300 = 89)
120-410 would be a jet of diameter 0.110 (410 - 300 = 110)

The fourth series jet is the high step jet used for primaries on a few AFB's used on Chryslers, and the AVS series carbs. This series differs in that the subtrahend is 400.

Example:

120-510 is a high step jet of diameter 0.110 (510 - 400 = 110)

DO NOT INTERCHANGE THE HIGH STEP JETS AND NORMAL JETS. The high step jets require a different length metering rod.

c) Found a few pages that talk about rebuilding and using the AFB parts but nothing about what to use since it's all application dependent.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/mopp_0305_carter_avs_carburetor_install/viewall.html

Yes you can use the Edelbrock Jets and Two Step Metering Rods for future reference - Its nice if you ever want to fine tune your carb for performance , and edelbrock jets and metering rods are usually carried in stock by alot of local part stores - Like stated in that arcticle , just use the flat metering rod covers or epoxy/fill your exsisting AVS covers flat , or make your own covers

Another quick tip - When you remove the hot idle compensator from the carb , make your own gasket without the vacuum hole cut out - Basically plugging off that vacuum hole with your gasket when you reinstall the compensator - When that compensator opened or failed it would just create a huge huge vacuum leak within the carb - Just a failed emission device for the time - Alot of guys would just throw it in the garbage and just plug it off by making there own cover

Float Drop and Float Level Must Bee Perfect - Measure Accurate 

[bakerhillpins]

Yes you can use the Edelbrock Jets and Two Step Metering Rods for future reference - Its nice if you ever want to fine tune your carb for performance , and edelbrock jets and metering rods are usually carried in stock by alot of local part stores - Like stated in that arcticle , just use the flat metering rod covers or epoxy/fill your exsisting AVS covers flat , or make your own covers

Another quick tip - When you remove the hot idle compensator from the carb , make your own gasket without the vacuum hole cut out - Basically plugging off that vacuum hole with your gasket when you reinstall the compensator - When that compensator opened or failed it would just create a huge huge vacuum leak within the carb - Just a failed emission device for the time - Alot of guys would just throw it in the garbage and just plug it off by making there own cover

Float Drop and Float Level Must Bee Perfect - Measure Accurate  

Any idea what a good baseline setup would be for the AFB/Edlebrock stuff and a 440?

I thought the HIC was to keep it from stalling out when there was lots of fuel vaporization (hot weather)?

Ill set the floats using the gauges that came with the kit which says to make sure I have the air horn gasket in place when setting.  

[bakerhillpins]

Ok so I am going to try to finish this..

I never got any feedback on the fuel strainer and just put the better of the two back in. Also I read that the butterfly rods should not be lubricated. The deal was that it attracted dirt which would gum up their movement which could result in stuck open or slow close condition.

Dino mentioned a webpage that showed a slick way to soda blast on the cheap. He had better results than I. I didn't think it worked out as well and it kinda felt like more work than it was worth. It did clean up the bits well but I had to pull the whole thing apart cuz the soda got into everything. 

Kit came with 2 different air horn gaskets. I chose the one on the left mostly because the original gasket only had 3 small holes (horizontal in pic on top and bottom of barrel holes) blocking off the 4th.

[bakerhillpins]

Rebuilding the base of the carb, the needles/seats for the floats in the kit are for a different version of the carb so I didn't change them. In fact I couldn't, I stuck them in but the longer top on the new ones bottomed out before it was seated. I didn't use the new needles either figuring that the new ones would probably leak because the old ones were worn sealed.

Setting the floats was a PITA as the cardboard gauge provided in the kit didn't have the settings needed based upon the listed specs. I ended up cutting my own gauges. I also was sure to measure the float heights at the end farthest from the piviot point as it showed in the setup manual.

[resq302]

Brian,

One thing I did was get a drill bit the diameter you needed for the float drop.  A LOT easier with trying to set up the floats than using that piece of measured cardboard.

[bakerhillpins]

Yea, I didn't think of that. Though I did use drill bits to set the choke and choke pull off but the docs said to do that so nothing of my own invention.

[myk]

How did you get the stubborn jet out?  I have a "stuck" primary jet in my 'eddy 'carb that I don't know what to do with...

[bakerhillpins]

When putting the Venturis back in be sure you pay attention to which one goes in each side as they are different even if the gasket is polarized. The Carter Manual I link to above tells which goes to which side.

Oh, I also wet down all my paper gaskets with WD40 before I used them. That was a suggestion I saw while researching the rebuild and it said that it helps if the carb ever needs disassembled.

[bakerhillpins]

How did you get the stubborn jet out?  I have a "stuck" primary jet in my 'eddy 'carb that I don't know what to do with...

If you hit up that link above you will note that I ended up having to drill it out and then use picks. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,102657.0.html

[bakerhillpins]

I ended up pulling out the butterfly shafts (or whatever they are called) and cleaning everything up. One thing to note is that putting them back in and getting them to center properly is actually quite easy. Simply insert the butterfly through the split in the shaft and loosely insert the retaining screws. Make sure you note the beveled edge and set it in right side up. You can tell it is in properly because it will seat nicely against the bore when closed. Gently close the shaft lightly taping the butterfly so that it seats tightly into the bore. Tighten up the retaining screws. 

After I performed this procedure I realized that the butterflies were not centered when I originally took the carb apart. I am sure this has made a difference in my idle setting as they can now completely block the bore.

[bakerhillpins]

I ended up keeping the hot idle compensator. I pulled it out and cleaned all the gunk out and replaced.  

I reassembled the air horn and spent a considerable amount of time properly adjusting all of the linkages and tolerances. Mine were WAY out and I had to bend all sorts of stuff to get it back into spec. On the plus side I dialed out the stock idle screw specs, dropped her on the intake, and she fired up and idled well right away. Previously I had to dial out the idle screws to like 6 turns to get it to stay running.

She has been running great with the exception of 2 things. My vacuum choke pull off crapped out so it would warm up RICH. Bleeding eye rich. When I replaced that with the spare that came on the junk carb I noticed that one of the metering rod caps came loose and the rod was poking out the top. Between the 2 of those issues I am shocked I had any vacuum left for the brake booster or headlights.  

Now I just need to get my arse out there and set the timing and properly set the idle speeds. LOL.

[myk]

How did you get the stubborn jet out?  I have a "stuck" primary jet in my 'eddy 'carb that I don't know what to do with...

If you hit up that link above you will note that I ended up having to drill it out and then use picks. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,102657.0.html

Sorry I asked.  I'm just going to buy a Holley instead...

[RIDGERACER383]

Hey myk I'm doing the same thing right now.With some time you can get it out.

[Dino]

How did you get the stubborn jet out?  I have a "stuck" primary jet in my 'eddy 'carb that I don't know what to do with...

Take eddy carb, go to trash can, open up trash can, drop eddy carb, go have a beer.   

Depending on the model of the carb, I may or may not be kidding.   


Bryan I'm sorry to hear the soda blasting didn't work.  Initially it didn't work well for me until I sifted the baking soda and upped the compressor to just shy of 100 psi.  Maybe I was lucky because the carb wasn't gummed up really, it was just black from carbon deposits and my carb looked like new in a few minutes of blasting. 

[bakerhillpins]

Dirk,

Well, I never sifted it and it took a lot longer than 5 min. So between the sifting and it being my first attempt it was probably more me than anything else.  Ill give it another shot in the future.     it was up in the 100 psi range though.