Quick amp question

[Captain D]

I had a quick question about which alternator amp you think I should go with. Basically, my engine is very close to stock electronically (69' Charger, 383 4 brrl BB, non A/C car, single pulley). The only 'upgrades' are:

1.) electronic points ignition,
2.) new headlights,
3.) cd player.

Even that, I hardly, if ever, use my headlights and my cd player is currently disconnected. I don't even have my dome light nor the instrument gauge lights hooked up. I'm concerned about ruining my stock wires (melting, fires, etc.). I wish that I could find, perhaps, a 50 amp alternator. But, I can only find a 60 amp alternator - do you think that this would be too much amps?

Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing any and all input,
Aaron

[Fred]

The 60 amp alternator is quite safe to use. I've got the same set up and I use a 75 amp.

[Pete in NH]

Hi,

A 60 amp alternator will be fine. I would also consider doing the Chrysler fleet bypass wiring modification which bypasses the problematic pins in the bulk head connector. This what Chrysler did when running a 60 amp alternator. I would also consider replacing the fusible link wire with something a little more reliable like a Littlefuse Maxi Fuse at 60 amps. Rockauto's Acdelco 3342089 will give you a 60 amp "square back" alternator and you'll be all set. This is a dual field terminal alternator so you'll need the newer electronic regulator on your 69.

[Captain D]

Thank you gents for the replies - all good info.  

Fred - What form of external voltage regulator were you able to find for your 75 amp alt. if I may ask?

We installed, and very briefly ran, a new 60 amp alternator with the existing stock 60 amp voltage regulator, and the multimeter registered this old regulator within the 9 range. A friend noted that once the new voltage regulator comes in (the one designed for electronic ignition that can withstand up to 65 amps), he said to check it again with the multimeter and hopefully it should read within the 12 range since my ammeter gauge reading was still showing a -20 whenever I applied the brake or had the car in gear. If nothing still changes after I install this new voltage regulator, he said that he has some high-end equipment that can trace which wire(s) is the culprit.

Pete in NH - I'll definitely look into the 'Littlefuse Maxi Fuse' - thank you. I can't say that I've ever heard of it, but I'll definitely look to see where I may be able to find it, price, how to install, etc.

I was able to find a few links. Were these correct as to what you were referring to?:

http://www.bowessealfast.com/p-2520-littelfuse-maxi-60-60amp-blade-fuses-single-pack.aspx

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_maxi-fuse-60-amp-omix-ada_10181505-p?searchTerm=littelfuse+maxi+60+60+amp+blade+fuses

Thank you again for the guidance and best regards,
Aaron

[Fred]

Here you go Aaron.........

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

Yes, both those links are for the Maxi-Fuse that I would use. You can get an in line pigtail holder for them as well. Fred gave you the correct regulator. I'm not sure what you have on the car presently by the information in your posting. Make sure the regulator has a good ground. Use external tooth lockwashers to mount it and I prefer bolting them on with 1/4-20 bolts, lockwashers and nuts rather than self tapping screws. Also, scrape away some of the paint around the mounting hole on both the regulator and firewall mounting holes for a good ground.

[Captain D]

Hi guys,

Thank you for the replies - I'll be sure to pick up one of the Maxi-Fuses on my next trip into Advance Auto,  . I've never installed one of these before, so it'll be a learning experience. Any tips, suggestions, something not to do, etc?

As for my new regulator, the link below was the one I had purchased over the past weekend that finally came today:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&vxp=mtr&item=251296553690

I was able to hook it up earlier today before work and started the car to do a test run. The ammeter numbers were:

- Slightly in the negative when the key is in the 'on' position (engine non-turned over just yet),
- At idle with the car started: +20 (even a few spikes to +30),
- When put in gear with my foot on the brake pedal (either forward or reverse) a reading between 0 to +20.

I'm glad to see that I'm no longer in the -20 reading, but are these numbers okay/safe - even when the +30 was indicated at idle and I occasionally revved up the engine? And lastly, is it normal for the regulator to get fairly warm to the touch (I suppose with the amps going through it it bound to get a little warm/hot)?

Thank you again for all of the replies and guidance,
Aaron
 

[Pete in NH]

After you first start the engine you need to replace the energy used to start the car so a amp reading of +30 or so is normal. As the battery recharges the reading should slowly fall back to the center or just slightly above it. If for some reason the battery was really down, it may take some time to fall back to the center. However, it should return to the center region of the ammeter.If it doesn't you have some type of problem.

On installing the Maxi-Fuse as I mentioned you can get in line holders for them. These holders have two wires coming out of the bottom and a rubber cap that closes over the top of the fuse in the holder to keep it splash proof. This fuse replaces the fusible link which typically is found coming from the 1/4 " battery stud on the starter relay to a single wire connector into the wiring harness. I would use a 1/4" ring terminal on the starter relay side and solder the other side into the wiring harness after removing the original connector. At these current levels soldered connections are always best.

[Captain D]

Hi Pete,

I started the car up again and let it run a little while to see if the ammeter came back down (which, shouldn't have taken too long since the battery was/is fully charged after testing it too). However, although it registered between 0 and +20 when I put it in gear while sitting at idle as mentioned previously, whenever I give it gas at idle and take it for a mini spin around the yard it spiked between the +30 and +40 to a dang near pegging position  . While the car was still running, and in park, I went up under the dash to touch the ammeter terminal on the rear cluster and both the alternator and oil pressure terminals were hot to the touch.

With that being said, I certainly wasn't about to take it up the road after that for fear of causing a melting/fire issue. Its odd because the old 75 amp that I had on there (with a non-electronic ignition regulator) never caused the ammeter to spike and this new alternator is a 'lower' amperage with a correct electronic ignition regulator that can withstand up to 65 amps. It would seem that either the regulator isn't doing its job or there is some other problem elsewhere that could be causing the problem. In the meantime, I can pick up a Maxi-Fuse but any idea what this issue could be? The only other thing that I did electronically recently was to address two wires under the car itself for when I kept blowing my back-up light fuse. I found that two wires were exposed (probably due to the heat of the headers) and I simply wrapped up individually and then collectively together when finished and the back-up lights are working perfectly fine now...

Thank you again for any and all input!
Aaron  

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

Okay, something is not right. Can you take your voltmeter and measure the voltage across the battery terminals, the reading should be between 13.8 and about 14.4 volts. I suspect you may find it is much higher. The ammeter terminals are getting warm because as the ammeter is indicating there is a lot of current flowing. Yes, don't run the car long in this condition, because if the voltage is too high you will surely fry something, very likely the battery

If you do find the voltage too high try disconnecting the regulator and then remeasure the battery voltage if it drops down to around 12 volts you will know the regulator is the issue. Good luck!

[resq302]

Hi Aaron,

What Pete said could also explain why your voltage regulator is getting warm / hot.  One thing to double check is all of your grounds.   A bad ground can cause all kinds of headaches.

[Captain D]

Hello again and thank you for the replies,

I went ahead and did some readings after work tonight with the multimeter. Being close to midnight, I didn't want to wake the house   so, I did the readings cold (non-engine running). But, I can start it up tomorrow and do some more tests if necessary. In the meantime, below were the numbers from the cold readings:

- Battery readings with regulator still hooked up: 12.48. And, second try: 12.47 (battery).
- Battery readings with voltage regulator disconnected: 12.47 - 12.48 (battery).
- And, the regulator itself was 00.00 when tested whether or not it was hooked up or not (regulator).

I can start it up tomorrow for better readings, but I'm weary now about starting it up. I 'think' I should be okay just to start it up - its applying gas that increases the amperage that I need to be cautious of I suppose. Just to double-check/clarify, you are suggesting to start the car, measure the battery while its still running, and if its readings are higher than 13.8 and 14.4 volts to re-test the battery with the voltage regulator disconnected while the car is still on?

I'll see if the seller will allow me to return this voltage regulator if its the main problem and go on the hunt for another one, perhaps like Fred's regulator pictured above. My fitment seems to be hard to find with the one screw on one side and the male terminal on the opposite (as pictured in the ebay add above). With all of the replacement parts going into this car, all I can say is that this car is certainly helping to stimulate the economy... Any positive or negative reviews on this one below from you guys?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121129616914&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

'Thank you again' for the replies and input!
Aaron


   

[Pete in NH]

Aaron,

Only the readings with the engine running are going to tell us what is really going on. So, as soon as you can make those tests we will know more. Yes, if the battery voltage is above 13.8 to14.4 volts with the engine running that would be a problem.

The regulator gets warm because it is controlling the field current to the alternator. It acts as a variable resistor and constantly adjusts the field current to maintain the 14 volt alternator output. The excess voltage betwen 14v and whatever it takes to maintain the required field current turns to heat. If you look at the EBay pictures in the link you sent you can see the transistor that does that job. The transistor is mounted to the metal case to dissipate that heat, so it will get warm. It should get warm not hot.

If you convert over to the Mopar regulator Fred suggested you will need to change the wiring connector to plug into the regulator and add one wire between the regulator and alternator. But, you will in the end have the factory system Chrysler designed for the alternator you are using. Over the years I have not had very good luck with aftermarket regulators and have found the Chrysler part to be well worth the few extra dollars.

[Captain D]

Hello Pete,

Thank you for your speedy reply my friend. We were able to do a test reading with the multimeter on the car today and here is what we recorded with the readings:

- The battery - (jumping around somewhat) we were able to get an approximate 14.25 to 14.30.
- The 'new' voltage regulator - approximate 5.30.

The other day, the regulator did manage to jump near the 11.00 and 12.00 for a second, but then averaged out below those numbers for the most part. Today, it seemed to be on the lower end for some reason (maybe because the car wasn't on for very long - being only 5 - 8 minutes tops) but can re-test the regulator again tomorrow morning if need be. I thought that I heard that the regulator too is supposed to be in the 12.00 number reading range. Is that correct?

In searching for Fred's regulator, I wasn't able to find one locally unfortunately, but noted that Summit Racing has one with the same part #:

 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4529794/overview/

And:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-3690731

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-3690732

If this is, in fact, the problem I suppose I don't trust myself enough to make the electrical wire changes at my home, so I'll probably just take it to a garage to ensure that it is done correctly 100%. If you'd like for me to do another battery check tomorrow morning (or another regulator check), just let me know and I'd be happy to get any readings that you'd like to help zero in on the problem.

Thank you again for your time and help,
Aaron

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

The 14.25 to 14.30 Volt readings at the battery with the engine running is just fine and within the normal range. The 5 volts for the regulator, I take it is at the regulator output to the alternator field winding and that too is a normal reading depending on the load the alternator is seeing. Is the ammeter still reading +30 amps? With the voltages within normal range as they are the ammeter current should taper off as the battrey charges. If it doesn't the current is going somewhere and you may have another wiring problem somewhere in the car. Since the battery doesn't seem to be going flat over night when the car is off it may be some thing only on the run side of the ignition circuit. Are you sure the battery is really fully charged and in good condition. If so, that charging current should taper off.

I would hold off on searching for another regulator as the one you have seems to be working. But, I would want to know where all that current is going if you are still getting a +30 amp reading on the dash ammeter.

[Captain D]

Hi Pete,

I did yet another test and the readings today:

- Battery: 14.30 when cold prior to start-up.
- Regulator: anywhere between the 2.00 to 5.00 range when started up.
- With the engine off and key in the off position, after I ran the car for several minutes, the battery reading was exactly: 12.61 when tested with the multimeter.

At initial start-up, the ammeter read within the +30 and even +40 range, then slightly decreased after the start-up. The good news was that this time round,' the ammeter registered at the +20 range the whole time (even when taking it for a spin around the yard), and less when I just sat there while in gear (between 0 and +20). I was beginning to think that things were beginning to taper out as mentioned previously. However, when I shut it down and came back to it 5 minutes later - it began to register at the +30 range again. I let it run for a few minutes, shut it down, and then repeated the same scenario. And, once again, it remained at the +30 range.   As for the battery, I just very recently had it tested for any dead cells and its in good shape.

When I first had seen the +20 reading, I was anxious to take it out on the road to do a test run at higher RMPs, but when it came back with the +30 I admit, I wimped out and thought it best not to drive it on the road just yet. As for the terminal on the back of the cluster, when the car reading was at +20 it didn't feel hot. But, when the car started reaching the +30 again, the terminal became moderately warm. Maybe things are 'ever soooo slowly' beginning to taper out, but tomorrow I may simply have it towed to a garage that have a few Mopar/Chrysler gurus working there that can use better equipment that I have here, and, have a new 60 amp Maxi-Fuse installed while its getting checked out.  

'Thank you' again for all of the help and guidance as I will be sure to post back to let you know how things go...
High regards,
Aaron

[resq302]

Just a question, Aaron, but have you double checked for corrosion or dirty connections on any of your grounds?

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,
That system voltage is certainly within normal range. As Nacho has posted the dash board ammeter is really best thought of as a battery charge/discharge meter. If it's wired correctly it is reporting whether current is flowing in or out of the battery. Your's seems to be telling us current is flowing into the battery at a pretty high level. By any chance have you added any accessory items that get their power from the battery side of things? For the ammeter to read correctly, added accessories need to be wired to the Alternator side of the ammeter.

[Captain D]

Hello all,

The other night, I inspected every ground that I could find, took it apart, lightly/gently sanded, and had used a contact cleaner. I even cleaned the wires to/from the starter, the ground from the battery to the engine block, etc. and then started up the car to see if there was any change. Whether or not it really helped, at least I know that my grounds are clean! The readings on the gauge was about the same: 0 to +20 for the most part, then seemed to increase close to the +30 reading when the gas is applied and car heats up. I also noted that, although the gauge cluster terminals didn't get hot like they did the other day, the voltage regulator did get moderately warm/hot. A friend up the road from where I live noted that he thinks that its a weak voltage regulator and even suggested putting the old one back on (the 60 amp non- electronic unit from NAPA), but I told him that my readings seem to be within the normal range.

One thing that I did notice but didn't know if it was relevant or not, but when I was under the dash checking the rear gauge cluster terminals, my new gauge cluster voltage regulator/limiter was flashing red at every two to three second intervals. I just haven't noticed that before and just thought that I would mention it. We were looking to have the car checked out at a local garage with a few Mopar experts there, but things got back-dated as they are backed up for a few days prior to the holiday weekend. Since I've got about a week, I suppose that gives me more time to do some more tests. As for any accessories - there is nothing hooked up at all.  

Thank you again for your time and if I were to ever go with one of these voltage regulators as posted by Fred, any good sellers that sell the actual connector terminal to correctly install it that you know of, by chance? (to make the transition from what I have to this version in other words):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performance-Voltage-Regulator-Restoration-Chrysler-Dodge-Plymouth-Each-/390615614425?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5af28143d9&vxp=mtr

Thank you again,
Aaron

[resq302]

Aaron,

Not to worry!  The RTE solid state voltage limiter for the gauges is supposed to blink like that.  Its basically a visual to know that it is working ok.  If it was a constant light, then you would have an issue.  Mine also blinks like that too.   

[Pete in NH]

Aaron,

I don't think the voltage regulator is the issue as the system voltage is normal. If you where to change to the Chrysler electronic regulator you will need the connector which Standard Motor Products S573 or Dorman 85126. If you have a battery charger,try disconnecting the negative battery cable and putting the battrey on the charger. If the battery still draws the maximum the charger can put out it is either not fully charged or you have a battery issue. See if the battery tapers off on the charger and if it does then put it back in the car and see what happens.

[Captain D]

Hello Pete,

For the past few days I've been checking out the grounding issues. In a nutshell, I've been sanding the painted areas around as many mounting holes on the firewall as I possibly can where any and all grounds connect (and even swapped out some of the older hardware for new while I was at it), and, started up the car today to do a little run around the yard to see how much the ammeter actually fluctuated.

To make a long story short, it stayed between the 0 and the +20 range when putting it into gear, both forward and reverse. The good news was that it did stay closer to the '0' point when put in gear I should say. And, while trying to get a little speed in the yard (as much as I could in the yard), it topped out at just a notch below the +20 range. If I had to put a number on it, I would say that it could be a +18; which is a heck of a lot better than that +30,  .

The only odd thing that I can add was that, when the ammeter reached the +18 mark, it didn't go any further - almost like it reached its 'limit.' I know that this may sound like a dumb observation, but I suppose I'm just used to my older readings in which the ammeter tended to bounce around a bit. But this time, at a somewhat 'steady cruise' in the yard, it reached the +18 and held very firm at that reading (without going a notch higher) when applying the gas forcefully. I'm not sure if this is crucial or not, but I just thought that I would mention it here simply because it had never done that before.

As for the ground connection, I probably can't say exactly which one may have been the culprit, but at least they're getting clean now and perhaps I'll do another (and longer) test run on the road in the next day or or so to see if anything should change from the readings of today if you feel that these numbers are now in the safe zone. A friend of mine mentioned a ground wire that runs from the rear of the gauge cluster to the steering column. In disconnecting my cluster from the dash twice now, I honestly can't recall any ground wires in that particular area. Where is it best for me to look up under the dash so that I could spot where it 'should' be and, perhaps, make one? Also, I 'believe' that I covered and cleaned a good number of grounds under the hood in the engine compartment, but since I do not have a service manual on the car just yet - is there a complete listing of ground wires that you know of that I can print up and go down the 'check-list' (in other words) just so that I know that I've addressed them all for the most part?

Thank you again for the all of the helpful info - all good material indeed,
Best regards,
Aaron

 

[Nacho-RT74]

Sorry Aaron, finally I replied your PM...

[resq302]

Hi Aaron,

I'm not familiar with any "ground" wires for the cluster to the dash.  I'm pretty sure that the metal housing of the cluster gets "grounded" by the metal screw holding it tight to the metal frame work of the dash.  What I did on my car was just made sure that there was at least one of the areas where the cluster made contact that was bare metal and even put some dielectric grease on there to keep it nice and clean.   

[Captain D]

Hello all,

Basically, we got a battery tester/charger and was surprised to see that it needed charged since we just recently had it checked and it was good only a few short weeks ago. I was able to replace the battery with the hopes that a bad battery was the simple problem. However, after installing a new battery:

- now none of the front lights, park lamps, turn signals, gauge needles, and rear lights come on,

- when the key is in the 'on' position, the gauge needles don't rise and the ammeter doesn't briefly go into the negative reading - it simply stays at '0.'

- the clock briefly stopped and even went backwards for a few moments,

- I was able to get the front lights on for a short time by disconnecting the wiring plug behind the cluster and cleaning it up behind there. But, when I turned the car off and back on again - they were out. I was able to get the headlight doors to come up, but not close. I hear hissing coming from our vacuum switches too.

- and, when I tested the new battery in the car to see what the reading was with the tester/charger, the battery reading began to dwindle as if something was draining it and it needed to be charged.

So, the car has a new battery, alternator, and voltage regulator + a vast majority of the key ground wires/connectors have been cleaned. I am hoping that the car will start tomorrow so that I can take it to get checked out, but it seems that I am losing power quickly throughout the car and when it is on, things seem to be working overtime to send power to the battery for some odd reason. I'm worried that since I have a new battery in there now, if so much power seems to be going to the battery could something possibly overload (now that it is new/full charged)...?

I've had the old battery disconnected off and on when cleaning the ground wires, so I didn't know if the constant on/off again would throw stuff off or not. I've never seen anything like this before. Electrical things are falling like dominoes. Any ideas? Would it be safe to even start up tomorrow?  scratchchin The 'only' thing that I can come up with at this point is either the wiring harness or the fusible link connectors are going bad.

Thank you for any input,
Aaron