First run with Thermoquad

[Dino]

Here is a pic of how mine was plumed before I pulled the AVS to rebuild it.

Thanks for the pic. 

I only have two ports on the TQ, one on thew rear for the choke pulloff and one on the front, to the right of the right side mixture screw, afaik, there's no other connections.

Seeing that pic reminded me to check wether the pcv hose needs to be hooked up to the passenger side or if it doesn't matter, mine's always been on the driver's side.

[flyinlow]

Vacuum advance is run off ported vacuum on the front of a thermoquad on the stock set up. This provides vacuum advance when the throttle is open above idle and there is still some vacuum in the intake...light acceleration and cruising...not at idle, WOT, or deceleration. You can try manifold vacuum instead. Some older GM's ran this way. I tried it and went back to ported. If you have your base timing and centrifical advance set up correctly , vacuum advance is just the icing on the cake. Lots of people don't run it with a properly set up distributor. I still use it but restrict mine to only 8* of advance.

Some air noise is normal at idle with the hood up. Not a shop vac or turbofan noise.

Timing marks are on the vibration dampner right behind the belt pulleys. A slot machined about 1/8 wide and deep. A small sheet metal tab on the front of the timing chain cover will have the TDC,10 and 20 marks. Clean and highlight with white or red paint. I use the little touch up paint/with brush that can get at the auto store. Even if you take it to a mechanic , he will appreciate being able to see the marks clearly.

[Dino]

Vacuum advance is run off ported vacuum on the front of a thermoquad on the stock set up. This provides vacuum advance when the throttle is open above idle and there is still some vacuum in the intake...light acceleration and cruising...not at idle, WOT, or deceleration. You can try manifold vacuum instead. Some older GM's ran this way. I tried it and went back to ported. If you have your base timing and centrifical advance set up correctly , vacuum advance is just the icing on the cake. Lots of people don't run it with a properly set up distributor. I still use it but restrict mine to only 8* of advance.

Some air noise is normal at idle with the hood up. Not a shop vac or turbofan noise.

Timing marks are on the vibration dampner right behind the belt pulleys. A slot machined about 1/8 wide and deep. A small sheet metal tab on the front of the timing chain cover will have the TDC,10 and 20 marks. Clean and highlight with white or red paint. I use the little touch up paint/with brush that can get at the auto store. Even if you take it to a mechanic , he will appreciate being able to see the marks clearly.

When you're in my neck of the woods come knocking would ya?  I owe you a few beers so dar for all the help.   

I still have a white paint pen from doing the instrument cluster resto so I'll use that for the marks.  It looks like I have the hose in the correct spot then so I'll leave it alone and get the timing done before anything else.  I had read that the jhose needs to above the throttle body but there's nothing there.  Maybe that's for a smogger carb, there's so many models it gets a bit confusing.

I just found yet another TQ float setting that said you have to measure from the gasket to the very bottom of the float.  My instructions said to measure to the bottom of the highest point of the float, they have a little step up shape on the end.  If I did this wrong then the floats are waaaaay off.

I think I can just disconnect the linkages and remove the airhorn without removing the rest of the carb so that's not too bad then.

[bakerhillpins]

Here is a pic of how mine was plumed before I pulled the AVS to rebuild it.

Thanks for the pic. 

I only have two ports on the TQ, one on thew rear for the choke pulloff and one on the front, to the right of the right side mixture screw, afaik, there's no other connections.

Seeing that pic reminded me to check wether the pcv hose needs to be hooked up to the passenger side or if it doesn't matter, mine's always been on the driver's side.

Wasn't sure if to would help since its a different carb but put it up while I looked in the FSM. Which at this time is also a no go and I am about to get in the car for the 10 hour trip home.

[flyinlow]

When you're in my neck of the woods come knocking would ya?  I owe you a few beers so dar for all the help.   

Thanks for offer. You know I am a Buckeye? Offer still good? 

[flyinlow]

I did check My '73 FSM  All TQ's for that year set the float at 1 1/16" with gasket installed on an inverted air horn. This is a lower fuel level that yours at 29/32" Measure at the end farthest from the needle and seat. With the engine shaking and the car moving, the fuel level bob's up and down some anyway.


http://www.moparnuts.com/images/stuff/Tquad2.pdf

[Dino]

When you're in my neck of the woods come knocking would ya?  I owe you a few beers so dar for all the help.   

Thanks for offer. You know I am a Buckeye? Offer still good? 

Oh heck yeah, I don't get the whole rivalry thing, it's all good to me!

[Dino]

I did check My '73 FSM  All TQ's for that year set the float at 1 1/16" with gasket installed on an inverted air horn. This is a lower fuel level that yours at 29/32" Measure at the end farthest from the needle and seat. With the engine shaking and the car moving, the fuel level bob's up and down some anyway.


http://www.moparnuts.com/images/stuff/Tquad2.pdf

If I can't get it fixed any other way I'll open up the carb and recheck everything, starting with the floats.

I could barely find the damper in that dark pit aka my engine bay so I tuned it by ear.  I don't have a tach so I looked up some vids on youtube to hear what 2500 - 3000 rpm sounds like and tried to match it.   

I capped the distributor advance and the port on the carb, loosened the clamp down bolt and revved up the engine.  Once I could hold it nice and steady I turned the distributor clockwise and rpm went up quite a bit.  When I found the highest rpm it turned it back just a tad and clamped it down.  I lowered the idle, reconnected vacuum advance and took it for a spin.  Way better but still bogging in 2nd and 3rd.  I can get more speed out of it but she's still not happy.  When I was doing 35-40 mph I floored it and it bogged, three times in a row and fourth time it launched...and then stumbled again until I let off the gas.  When I'm at speed and put the trans in neutral and floor it it is crisp throughout the range but under load it does not want to go.  It had gotten much worse in the last few days. Up to the point where I really couldn't drive much over 35 comfortably.  This made it much better but still work to do.

I hooked up the vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum and got a reading of 13 at idle and 19 at high rpm.  The needle bounces a bit at idle due to the cam but when I up the idle a bit it levels to about 14.  Before I had an idle of about 8, I forget what it was at high rpm but it's in one of my threads, I'll find it.

When I look down the carb while tapping the gas, I see the two nozzles squirt about the same volume, not a jet but a nice stream.  I'll try to take a pic or video once it stops raining.  There's absolutely no bog, the throttle is very responsive when in park or neutral. 

I also need to go back and reread how this whole choke plate and fast cam thing is supposed to work.  The choke plate always seems to stay open, if I close the door it dies but I guess that's what it's supposed to do!  The secondary air door seems to stick when I push it all the way down but it springs back nicely when I push it down almost all the way.  I'll check the linkage.  The play I have on the air door is to rebuild specs but I know they're finicky so I may have to redo the spring tension setting.

I also need to figure out the metering rod setting again, I keep forgetting how to do that.

Idle mixture screws are about 2 1/4 turns out although I have not rechecked, I just set them to have max vacuum.  They were at 2 1/2 turns out when I started and turning them didn't do a whole lot.  I hear that's normal with this cam though.

So currently it sounds wild and super responsive when in park. I don't think it could me much smoother.  Same with the idle, it's running way more quiet now for some reason. nice and clean.  The exhaust was smelling a bit rich but I did do a lot of flooring in the 30 minutes preceding the smell test so I may have just flooded the whole thing.

I sure hope I can get it to run properly, the carb is very promising and I'm really impressed with what it can do even when not tuned properly.

I have not yet done the fuel pressure test or actually looked at what my timing is currently at.  This could be an ignition curve problem could it not?

[flyinlow]

Don Garlits, Richard Petty and Amadeous Mozart might be able to tune their engines by ear. I still need a timing light.  However I think you got some idea of the effect of ignition timing now. Some guys just keep advancing the timing until the engine detonates (pinging) on acceleration and then back off a few degrees. I recommend a good rollback timing light.

Vacuum readings are in the ballpark.  Indicates the engine is healthy

The fuel squiring into the primaries  is the accelerator pump discharge. Normal. It is there to temporarily richen the mixture as you open the throttle. That's how you can start the engine without the choke hooked up by pumping the gas petal to prime the engine. That won't work as well in the winter.

Don't worry about the choke for now ,leave it open.

Air valve should not bind. With the engine off ,there should be a light spring pressure to overcome to push the door open. With the engine idling the vacuum break will hold it shut except for the slight movement you checked for during the carb rebuild.  You can not easily see the door open just gunning the engine in park.

I have to restate one thing: TUNE THE IGNITION FIRST!  Check your fuel system delivery. When its set up then work on the carb . 

[Dino]

Yep, I will make sure ignition is set before I do anything else.  I had to take a few pictures of the damper because it's so well hidden I could not see any marks.  I'm not sure how I'm going to reach it with a paint pen but if it works I should be okay to read it.  It's hard to see but it'll work I'm sure.

This is a little cideo of the secondary air door with the engine off.  That's not normal so once ignition is set I need to remove the carb and fix the door and whatever else is going on.

http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/Dino-69/media/1969%20Dodge%20Charger/Secdoorbinds_zps78f72432.mp4.html

[Dino]

My mechanic won't have time to set the timing for at least another week.  Dammit...


Now could my problem also be a bad coil?  I found some post online about a guy having the same issue and he had the same coil.  Replaced it and everything was fine.  At around 55 the car starts sputtering but it is very consistent, as it is timed. 

I have the accell super coil, if there's something better to get I may just do that since this thing is old.

[ottawamerc]

My mechanic won't have time to set the timing for at least another week.  Dammit...


Now could my problem also be a bad coil?  I found some post online about a guy having the same issue and he had the same coil.  Replaced it and everything was fine.  At around 55 the car starts sputtering but it is very consistent, as it is timed. 

I have the accell super coil, if there's something better to get I may just do that since this thing is old.

Could be in an related way I had a marine engine do that to me too took me a long time and many parts swapping before I found the wire going to the coil had broken down and was causing the issue. It idled great but under load and higher RPM it would miss, changed the wire and VOILA! So in saying that maybe a defective ballast resistor or the wrong one?

Scott

[Dino]

My mechanic won't have time to set the timing for at least another week.  Dammit...


Now could my problem also be a bad coil?  I found some post online about a guy having the same issue and he had the same coil.  Replaced it and everything was fine.  At around 55 the car starts sputtering but it is very consistent, as it is timed. 

I have the accell super coil, if there's something better to get I may just do that since this thing is old.

Could be in an related way I had a marine engine do that to me too took me a long time and many parts swapping before I found the wire going to the coil had broken down and was causing the issue. It idled great but under load and higher RPM it would miss, changed the wire and VOILA! So in saying that maybe a defective ballast resistor or the wrong one?

Scott

Is this the ballast resistor on the firewall or is there another?  I know you have to run a second one when you have points but didn't know of another with electronic ignition. 

I never even checked the wires, I'll do that first.  I also looked up the resistance for that coil so I'll put the meter on it and see what it says. 

Since the issue started when I swapped carbs, I figured it would not be related to anything else (save timing) but coincedence does happen.  Heck for all I know I knicked a wire when that flex fan snapped off and took out the radiator.

[flyinlow]

The air valve should not stick.

35 years ago The Super coil was not so super. I had one go bad . A buddy had trouble with one also. Not sure if they are more reliable now.

Basic coil test: Take a cotter pin and spread it slightly. Remove the coil wire and insert the cotter pin in its place.  Clip a small jumper lead to a pair of insulated handle pliers. Ground the other end to the engine. Hold the coil wire against the  cotter pin with the grounded pliers . Have someone start the car. Slowly pull the coil wire away from the cotter pin. you should see a blue spark jumping the gap. You should be able to jump 1/2 inch or more before the engine quits. Don't do this indirect sunlight , harder to see. If your coil wires insulation is good and you use the pliers correctly , you will not get shocked.    They do sell non metallic pliers for this test.

You can also check the coil resistance with an ohmmeter. Disconnect the primary wires and read across the two terminals. Accel website might have the correct reading.

[Dino]

Yep air door needs work but it's not that bad to do so no biggie.  I don't think the air door is the issue though, it's really sounding like it's an ignition thing.  I remember many years ago my motorcycle would start sputtering like this, not an uneven sputter but a nicely timed interval stutter.  Turned out to be the coil but I also remembered it didn't do that until it got hot, the Charger seems to do it all the time.  It also takes forever for it to get hot with the new fan,  Maybe I'm focusing too much on the temp gauge as before I didn't have to and the temps is the same.  I just want to make sure everything stays within normal range.

I found the super coil specs so I'll see what the numbers read on mine.  I'll do the resistance thing before I try to make the spark jump, been there, done that, have the scars.   

[Dino]

Quick question on float level.

There is no clear height setting for these aftermarket brass floats and I think I have mine set higher than stock already. 

I would like to ignore the numbers for a minute and just tweak until it runs nice, what a novel idea eh?   

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

[71 SE3834V]

Quick question on float level.

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

One thing, you can get fuel dripping out the nozzles when the engine is off. So therefore it could drip when idling. When at idle you shouldn't see any fuel coming out the nozzles cause with the throttle plates closed there shouldn't be any vacuum above the plates so the fuel should only be passing through the idle circuit/ports.

Dino......for the price of the fuel you could have your timing set. I'll be at the Wayne cruise tomorrow. I'll throw the light in the trunk if you want to meet me.

[Dino]

Quick question on float level.

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

One thing, you can get fuel dripping out the nozzles when the engine is off. So therefore it could drip when idling. When at idle you shouldn't see any fuel coming out the nozzles cause with the throttle plates closed there shouldn't be any vacuum above the plates so the fuel should only be passing through the idle circuit/ports.

Dino......for the price of the fuel you could have your timing set. I'll be at the Wayne cruise tomorrow. I'll throw the light in the trunk if you want to meet me.

Thanks for the offer!   

I would love to come over but I'm not sure I want to drive it beyond my sub.  There's no way I can get it running decent above 50 nor can I stomp on it so I can't rely on the car to act quickly when I need it to.

If I feel brave and change my mind I will let you know.

Thanks again for the offer, I really appreciate it.   

The Jackson rd. cruise is going on in Ann Arbor tomorrow as well, strange that they'd do them on the same day.

[71 SE3834V]

I've only skimmed over some of the posts so I might have missed this. Have you checked for timing chain slop? You mentioned a cam but I'm wondering what condition the chain is in.
You state the car bogs. Mine ran fine on the primaries but if I kicked in the secondaries it ran like the firing order was all wacked up. At higher rpm's it was like it had a rev limiter on it. Finally checked the timing chain slop and the crank would move 13-15* before the rotor would move. So the cam is running 15* behind where it should be.

I'll second the notion that you need to know all the electrical (and mechanical) is right before you mess w/the fuel.

[Dino]

As soon as I have the time, I'll put the eddy carb back on and see how she does.  It'll run rich but it should run through the entire band without sputtering. 

Not sure about the chain, it's certainly a possibility. 

Besides the carb swap the only change to the car was adding a thermal clutch and new fan when the old fan snapped.  Any chance that jolt could've done damage anywhere?

[71 SE3834V]

I don't know. Seems possible but all I'm saying is mine seemed to run good when I put it away last fall and when I got it out I replaced the dist before driving it. It ran like crap. Thought I had a bad rebuilt dist. cause "that's what I had just replaced". Checked plugs, compression (seemed decent for 40 yr old car, all w/in 10%), triple checked firing order, readjusted points & timing, checked rocker movement & finally checked the chain slop. I had a suspicion it was going last year as the timing mark was jumping around a bit and the engine sounded a little "ratty" at the top end but I could break the tire loose at will and could get a chirp at the 1-2 shift but this year if I stomped on it, it would fall on it's face.

[flyinlow]

Quick question on float level.

There is no clear height setting for these aftermarket brass floats and I think I have mine set higher than stock already. 

I would like to ignore the numbers for a minute and just tweak until it runs nice, what a novel idea eh?   

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

I don't think that minor float level changes will dramatically effect your carb. As long as your jets remain covered with fuel during all phases of driving and the fuel level is not so high that fuel is not dribbling out  of the  carb at idle or engine off the carb should work.

If you have a known good carb, you can try it.

[flyinlow]

Not sure if you have tried this. Disconnect and plug the vacuum line to the distributor. Test drive.

[Dino]

I sure hope it's not the chain, but I put it on the list.

Makes sense about the floats and I didn't think it would cause this much of an issue.  I did find several posts about TQ owners who reset the level a minute amount and solved their issue.  I don't know why but I'm leaving the floats until all else fails.  The more I find about similar issues, the more I believe the secondary air door may be the culprit here.

I have tested the car with vacuum advance connected and blocked and I don't feel any difference which I though was odd.  Right now it's capped.

Eddy carb will be back on today so I will post back with the results.

[Dino]

Alright, it's the carb!

I put the eddy back on and this time got the linkage working correctly.  I still can't get it lean enough at idle even though vacuum is 15 at idle and it sounds real nice.  My eyes didn't burn standing behind the exhaust this time but still smelling rich.  It also settled in a nice idle right after starting it up and without the choke it's not supposed to do that.

Taking it on the road I knew right away the TQ was the issue because now the car pulled in all gears without a single hiccup.  The 1407 lacks the punch of the TQ and the crispness but it ran real nice.  I can't spin the tires with this carb easily, something that was easier with the TQ, but I can drive it anywhere as it is.  I punched it a lot once it was hot and never smelled the fuel like I used to.  I'm not sure why the eddy decided to run so much better all of a sudden but it does.  I ran it with vacuum advance blocked, ported and full manifold and the latter made it run even better.  I have more testing to do though.

I'll open up the TQ and start over.  At least now we know where the problem lies.