First run with Thermoquad

[Dino]

Now that all the cooling issues are dealt with, it was time to test the TQ I rebuilt.  My very first!  After it warmed up it never got a degree above what I had before btw, the new fan and clutch work great.  Only when you hot start it, the temp goes up 10 degrees more and then drops back down, must be the clutch at work. The adjustments I had to make the carb were pretty severe, some linkages were bent and the fast idle cam was bent as well.  The body and internals however only needed a good cleaning, courtesy of a soda blaster which made short work of that.  I had a lot of fun fixing everything so I was ready to accept this would not work as I wanted and go out to buy a new carb.   

I followed the adjustment procedure and set the idle screws at 2 1/2 turns out.  I don't have a choke because the crossover is blocked so it idled a bit rough at first, but it ran, and never stalled.  I let it run for a minute or two in the driveway and slowly put-putted down the subdivision.  After about 30 seconds I noticed the carb started to breath a it better so I kept it slow, about 20-25 mph in 3rd.  With 2.96 gears you can see I'm pretty much idling along.  I took it on a very quiet road where funny enough the limit is 55.  So I gave it a bit more and by the time I reached the end of the road I knew something had changed with my car.  Friggin' everything!   

When I removed the eddy carb, the linkage was real sloppy.  After studying the linkage and the TQ I started fine tuning it and found a good guide to help me along.  This car is about 180 degrees of what it was a week ago.  The throttle is as crisp as a modern car, the transmission shifts way cleaner and way later.  It finally makes sense!  I thought the trans was just slow but I guess it was the setup.  Right now the entire driving experience took a dramatic turn for the better.   

I then pushed the pedal a bit and the damn thing spun the tires!  It never did that before, not at speed anyway! 
This car drives like a raped ape.  I can't believe what a difference this all made.

It's only the first run and I know the car needs more work, exhaust the most pressing by far but damn this is just shocking.  I've never heard a V8 scream like that when those secondaries opened, holy cow!

It also seems to startup hot or cold without any issues although running without a choke into November is gonna be tough.

I know I'd have a tough time setting the idle perfect with this cam so I hope the vacuum, gauge will do the job for me.  I'm looking for the highest number setting each screw right?

I'm gonna fill this thing up and go lay down some rubber, catch you guys later.   

[Dino]

Took the long way to the gas station and back and the car runs like a dream.  I can't believe what a difference this is.

It now moves when I want it to and how I want it to.   

I think I need to adjust the metering rods a bit because when I'm in 3rd doing 40-50 and I mash the pedal, it goes to second and takes off without the slightest hesitation, but as soon as it shifts to 3rd it starts to bog at or near wot.  A little less and it's fine again.  I thought it was lean at first but the second time I tried that I could smell gas so probably running a bit rich here.

I probably should have my timing checked before I do that.  What should I be looking for?

[flyinlow]

Normally you  tune the ignition first, then carb. Assuming you have a healthy engine.

Most stock BB Mopars run about 5-10* BTDC idle timing and about 20-25* of centrifugal advance on top of that by about 4000rpm. Vacuum advance would be on top of that. It works but you are leaving power and gas millage on the table.
For better performance, you want to run as much idle timing as possible . The limits will be, does the engine ping and will it restart on a hot day. Total mechanical timing, base + centrifugal should be in the 32-38* range by 2500 for an auto car.  Running vacuum advance is  personal preference (I do).
Heads, cam, CR. axle ratio, A/F ratio ,pistons, fuel, mini starter  and thermostat temperature are some of the variables that affect how much timing you can run. Don't mean that to sound intimidating, if you are within a few of degrees of perfect it will run well. A modern MP or Firecore distributor will make it easier to tune, but you can re-spring and weld an old stock one.

[Brightyellow69rtse]

sometimes i miss the old thermoquad. you really felt it when the secondaries opened up!

[Dino]

I drove it all over town yesterday, 70-75 degree weather.  Without a choke I have to feather the gas when the engine is cold but nothing abnormal there.  Once I start driving I need to be light on the gas but really no issues here either, I can still get it up to 55 without any problems and without having it bog or stumble.  Once it warms up it runs absolutely stellar.  The throttle reacts instantaniously in any condition, the idle is nice and low.  

I still have this one problem though.  I kinda made a mess with all my separate threads here so I'll stick to this one for everything TQ related.

So, here's the scenario:  Regardless if I'm cruising in third or I start from a stop.  With the pedal to the floor, it pulls through first and second flawlessly but once it shifts to third it starts to stumble and stutter.  Even when I let of the gas a bit it keeps doing it.  I tried with 1/2 - 3/4 throttle and it's the same issue.  When I slowly let the speed climb with throttle only depressed partially it goes fine.  So it looks like I'm not getting enough fuel.

Could it be that my floats are set at the wrong height and I'm draining the bowl faster than it can fill?

I have the aftermarket brass floats.  Does anyone know the exact setting for those?  I find conflicting numbers online.  My rebuild instructions said the aftermarket (not the original) brass floats should be set the same as the foam floats at 29/32" so that's where they're at.  Do I need to raise them a bit?

Can the metering rod have anything to do with this issue?  

[flyinlow]

So it looks like I'm not getting enough fuel.

I'm draining the bowl faster than it can fill?

ICan the metering rod have anything to do with this issue?  

If it was a metering rod problem it would run bad in 1st & 2nd gear too. I think you are right about the fuel delivery  not keeping up with demand at high power settings. The carb starts off full and runs well until it gets low on gas. Accelerating slowly lets the fuel delivery keep up. Do a fuel delivery test.

The primary metering rods on a TQ are controlled by two things : intake manifold vacuum and throttle position.
When your engine is off (intake vacuum is zero ) the stirrup that controls the metering rods is raised in the full rich position by its spring. When you start the engine and it is idling or part throttle, the high vacuum in the intake is applied to the stirrup plunger drawing down to the lean (normal) position. As you open the throttle a cam on the primary throttle shaft raises the stirrup and rods as you open the throttle. At low vacuum the plunger spring is stronger vacuum force is and the rods are raised to full rich. So two conditions can raise the metering rods to full rich. To see this ,with the engine off, push down on the stirrup until it bottoms. Open the throttle and you will see the stirrup raise with increasing throttle. Notice the small screw in the stirrup. You can fine tune your part throttle A/F ratio with it.

[Brightyellow69rtse]

i also think your running out of gas. my car was doing that a while back and i unhooked the fuel line and blew it out with a compressor. alot of crap came out and she ran great after that. shortly after i replaced the line completly as it was pretty crappy. never had the problem again.

[Dino]

I'm going to check the metering rod tonight.  As I recall, I set it to the base specs.  I forget exactly how it worked but you had to turn it one way until the rod stopped moving, then go the other way...funny stuff.  

Anyway, fired up the Charger this morning and without the choke it stalled about 8 times, no kidding.  Pretty annoying but I guess at least it's not running rich!  It even gave me a small backfire.

Once I got it to move all seemed fine until I got on the main road and slowly pushed it up to 55.  I didn't make it, it started shaking around 50.  I feathered it to get up to 55 but it was clear the car was not happy doing this.  I turned into a side road and turned around to go back home.  At this point the engine started warming up so it went a bit smoother but still it would act up around the 55 mark.  If I gave it more throttle then it would simply bog.  It really felt as if there was no fuel available.  When I turned into my street I got a tiny bog as well so I think an empty fuel bowl may indeed be the problem here.  What concerned me is that my garage smelled like fuel when I pulled it back in.  Is it flooding instead of not getting enough?  I'm way confused here...

The only thing I changed, apart from carb, is a short rubber fuel line going to the carb and I exchanged the wix cannister filter with a bigger version.

I will be buying a sending unit soon and am looking for a new 3/8" and 1/4" line to install, along with the vapor cannister.

[maxwellwedge]

Vapor cannister?

[Dino]

Vapor cannister?

Hey look I spelled it wrong again!   

The black charcoal canister that's hooked up to the fuel pump.  My car was a sb car so I only have a single fuel line, no return, no canister.  Now that it has a 440, it's time to add it.

[maxwellwedge]

Oh OK - Vapor separator is what you mean.......that charcoal canister (got it!)  stuff was used in later years. 

[Dino]

Oh OK - Vapor separator is what you mean.......that charcoal canister (got it!)  stuff was used in later years. 

Separator!  That's the one, sorry man I'm just a mess today.   

Just to be sure the filter is not the culprit, I'm trying my old one tonight.  I doubt the new filter is the problem but stranger things have happened.

[maxwellwedge]

Just make sure you get one of the good ones - there were some bad ones out there that will make your problem worse.

Good idea to check the filter. 

Can you adjust the secondaries to open later on those carbs? Never played with one - so I'm not sure. Fuel pump ok?

[Dino]

I got the separator from Megaparts and I was told this is the one I want.

The adjustment on the secondaries is one of those that you need to do in a specific sequence, which I did.  I guess I can have it open later but it will likely knock the other adjustments out of alignment.

I would think my fuel pump is okay as I could floor the car with the eddy carb.  It was badly tuned but never did anything like this at higher rpm.  Of course it could have an issue now so I'm contemplating getting a new pump as well.  Looks like I'll be spending a bit on those fuel lines as well.  $50 + each...dammit...

[flyinlow]

Fuel test is cheap . Warm up engine so it will idle. Disconnect the fuel line at the carb. The engine will run at idle for a minute or so on the fuel in the bowl. Add what ever hose you need to run it into a two liter bottle. Start engine, idle at normal speed, fill the bottle in 60 seconds. Life is good. . Pressure test needs a gauge . 5-7 psi is good for Carters.


TQ trivia : Do not wire the secondary air valve open. Set air valve max opening to spec. Bending the door to make it "open" more messes up the vacuum signal to the secondary fuel tubes changing the A/F ratio (I have tried both).

[Dino]

Fuel test is cheap . Warm up engine so it will idle. Disconnect the fuel line at the carb. The engine will run at idle for a minute or so on the fuel in the bowl. Add what ever hose you need to run it into a two liter bottle. Start engine, idle at normal speed, fill the bottle in 60 seconds. Life is good. . Pressure test needs a gauge . 5-7 psi is good for Carters.


TQ trivia : Do not wire the secondary air valve open. Set air valve max opening to spec. Bending the door to make it "open" more messes up the vacuum signal to the secondary fuel tubes changing the A/F ratio (I have tried both).

Just so I'm clear...

After warming up the engine, I shut it off and disconnect the fuel line.  Do I stick the fuel line in a bottle so the fuel pump fills the bottle?

[flyinlow]

Yes , not sure what you current pump to carb line is, you just want to run the fuel into something to measure the volume. My FSM says min. 1 quart in a minute. My current  pump will fill a 2 liter pop bottle in a minute at idle. Engine does not need to be warm, as long as it is idling at its normal speed. Make sure you do not have any arcing plug wires or ignition sources.  Don't let it spray on the headers. I would do this outside with a fire extinguisher handy. Remove the fuel line from the carb slowly with a rag around it to bleed off any residual pressure.  Buy 5-10 feet of  fuel hose and run from the carb line to the bottle beside the car on the floor

[Dino]

I haven't touched the car since it acted up last Friday so here's the plan, before I change fuel lines/sending unit and all that fun stuff.

Replace the new fuel filter with the old and see if it changes anything.  Get some fuel line and do the fuel pump test.  I do have a vacuum gauge/fuel pressure tester so can I use that instead?  How do those things work?

I'll then take it to a garage to do timing unless I can do this at home easily.  I have never done it, I do have an old but rarely if ever used Craftsman timing light but I have no clue what to do with it.  Can I do this by ear?

If all that checks out and it still won't run properly in 3rd then I will reset the TQ floats.  I have no clue what to set them at though so I'll be looking for some numbers.

Currently, measured with the air horn upside down and the gasket in place, I have 29/32" from the gasket to the lowest top part of the float.  With the same orientation, if I want more fuel in the bowl that measurement has to be less correct?

[flyinlow]

Some fuel system basics. Excuse me if you already know this stuff.

On level ground, with a slight rake to the car if you remove the suction line from the fuel pump, fuel from the tank will slowly siphon on to the floor. So At a traffic light or cruising down the road, the fuel pump does not have to suck very hard to get fuel to the pump. During acceleration, going up a hill or when the tank is almost empty the pump has to work harder to get fuel to the pump . The pump is a diaphragm style pump operated by a push rod that is activated by an eccentric on the camshaft. It pumps one stroke every  two revolutions of the engine. When you run the fuel line into a jar to test its output volume, it will come out in pulses, this is normal. The pump has an inlet and output check valves that work with the diaphragm and its spring. The spring is what determines the pumps max fuel pressure . If the diaphragm is torn(pump will usually leak) , the spring gets weak, a check valve fails or the push rod wears too short, the pump will not deliver its normal rating.

Your gauge should work fine for the pressure test. Tee it in the line or just leave the  pump to carb line hooked to it. If you Tee it in and have enough hose you can drive the car and see if it maintains pressure. I have driven with test gauges duck taped to the windshield before.

[Dino]

Some fuel system basics. Excuse me if you already know this stuff.

On level ground, with a slight rake to the car if you remove the suction line from the fuel pump, fuel from the tank will slowly siphon on to the floor. So At a traffic light or cruising down the road, the fuel pump does not have to suck very hard to get fuel to the pump. During acceleration, going up a hill or when the tank is almost empty the pump has to work harder to get fuel to the pump . The pump is a diaphragm style pump operated by a push rod that is activated by an eccentric on the camshaft. It pumps one stroke every  two revolutions of the engine. When you run the fuel line into a jar to test its output volume, it will come out in pulses, this is normal. The pump has an inlet and output check valves that work with the diaphragm and its spring. The spring is what determines the pumps max fuel pressure . If the diaphragm is torn(pump will usually leak) , the spring gets weak, a check valve fails or the push rod wears too short, the pump will not deliver its normal rating.

Your gauge should work fine for the pressure test. Tee it in the line or just leave the  pump to carb line hooked to it. If you Tee it in and have enough hose you can drive the car and see if it maintains pressure. I have driven with test gauges duck taped to the windshield before.

You rock!  You just answered half my questions!  I am such an amateur when it comes to this stuff.  Body work I can do easily but mechanical is a world of mystery to me!

I tried installing my old filter to make sure the new was okay and there is no change so that's out.  When I fired it up yesterday, it had sat for 6 days.  I had to crank it several times to keep it running without choke but once it ran it idled very nicely.  I slowly drove around the neighborhood, gently warming the engine but it's getting worse, it's now not wanting to go above 40, anything above quarter gas pedal down and it'll act up.  Very strange.

I read somewhere (probably one of your posts) that the distributor vacuum advance should be hooked up to the manifold, mine's hooked up to the front port on the throttle body.  I'm going to pick up a longer vacuum line after work so I can connect advance to the rear port of the manifold for now.  A/C is not installed os I don't need that hose connected for now. 
I'll also get more fuel line so I can connect the gauge and drive it. 

I hope my mechanic can check the timing some day soon, I don't think I can do this on my own but I understand it's priority.  When that's done I'll check the secondary air door to make sure it opens as it should and also check if the secondary throttle opens as it should.  I can do that with the engine off.  I hate hanging over the engine while it's running, especially after that fan blew up!

Funny enough, even with this issue, it runs real crisp with excellent throttle response so I really hope I can get it dialed in with this cam.  When I do get it running properly I'm going to have to tear up the road a bit before I can drive normally and find out what the fuel consumption is.

[flyinlow]

Yes the fuel level in the carb will be higher with a  setting or 27/32" rather than 29/32". You still can't go very far very fast if the fuel delivery does not satisfy the carbs needs.

[flyinlow]

Setting the timing should be a priority .  Here's a video on the basics. They used a SB Chevy with a nice degreed harmonic dampner. You will just have the basic timing marks on your car.  Chevys and  SB Mopars have their distributors in the different place and they spin backwards , but the concept is the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifTHbb06_I

[Dino]

Thanks again for the info!   

I never knew there were timing marks on the balancer, I'll have to take a look tonight.

I did some more reading and now find posts that say the vacuum advance needs to be on the carb and not on the manifold.  So...wich one do I pick?  I've had it on the front of the carb all this time.

[Dino]

I keep forgetting to mention this...

With the car idling and the choke plate open, the sound of rushing air is really prominent.  It makes the same noise while driving but because of engine and exhaust noise it's not as noticable as at idle but still very audible.  Is this normal?  It sounds like I have a small vacuum cleaner running.
I wish I had a good audio recorder so I can record what it's doing.  Hmm maybe my mp3 player can pick up the sounds.

[bakerhillpins]

Here is a pic of how mine was plumed before I pulled the AVS to rebuild it.

[Dino]

Here is a pic of how mine was plumed before I pulled the AVS to rebuild it.

Thanks for the pic. 

I only have two ports on the TQ, one on thew rear for the choke pulloff and one on the front, to the right of the right side mixture screw, afaik, there's no other connections.

Seeing that pic reminded me to check wether the pcv hose needs to be hooked up to the passenger side or if it doesn't matter, mine's always been on the driver's side.

[flyinlow]

Vacuum advance is run off ported vacuum on the front of a thermoquad on the stock set up. This provides vacuum advance when the throttle is open above idle and there is still some vacuum in the intake...light acceleration and cruising...not at idle, WOT, or deceleration. You can try manifold vacuum instead. Some older GM's ran this way. I tried it and went back to ported. If you have your base timing and centrifical advance set up correctly , vacuum advance is just the icing on the cake. Lots of people don't run it with a properly set up distributor. I still use it but restrict mine to only 8* of advance.

Some air noise is normal at idle with the hood up. Not a shop vac or turbofan noise.

Timing marks are on the vibration dampner right behind the belt pulleys. A slot machined about 1/8 wide and deep. A small sheet metal tab on the front of the timing chain cover will have the TDC,10 and 20 marks. Clean and highlight with white or red paint. I use the little touch up paint/with brush that can get at the auto store. Even if you take it to a mechanic , he will appreciate being able to see the marks clearly.

[Dino]

Vacuum advance is run off ported vacuum on the front of a thermoquad on the stock set up. This provides vacuum advance when the throttle is open above idle and there is still some vacuum in the intake...light acceleration and cruising...not at idle, WOT, or deceleration. You can try manifold vacuum instead. Some older GM's ran this way. I tried it and went back to ported. If you have your base timing and centrifical advance set up correctly , vacuum advance is just the icing on the cake. Lots of people don't run it with a properly set up distributor. I still use it but restrict mine to only 8* of advance.

Some air noise is normal at idle with the hood up. Not a shop vac or turbofan noise.

Timing marks are on the vibration dampner right behind the belt pulleys. A slot machined about 1/8 wide and deep. A small sheet metal tab on the front of the timing chain cover will have the TDC,10 and 20 marks. Clean and highlight with white or red paint. I use the little touch up paint/with brush that can get at the auto store. Even if you take it to a mechanic , he will appreciate being able to see the marks clearly.

When you're in my neck of the woods come knocking would ya?  I owe you a few beers so dar for all the help.   

I still have a white paint pen from doing the instrument cluster resto so I'll use that for the marks.  It looks like I have the hose in the correct spot then so I'll leave it alone and get the timing done before anything else.  I had read that the jhose needs to above the throttle body but there's nothing there.  Maybe that's for a smogger carb, there's so many models it gets a bit confusing.

I just found yet another TQ float setting that said you have to measure from the gasket to the very bottom of the float.  My instructions said to measure to the bottom of the highest point of the float, they have a little step up shape on the end.  If I did this wrong then the floats are waaaaay off.

I think I can just disconnect the linkages and remove the airhorn without removing the rest of the carb so that's not too bad then.

[bakerhillpins]

Here is a pic of how mine was plumed before I pulled the AVS to rebuild it.

Thanks for the pic. 

I only have two ports on the TQ, one on thew rear for the choke pulloff and one on the front, to the right of the right side mixture screw, afaik, there's no other connections.

Seeing that pic reminded me to check wether the pcv hose needs to be hooked up to the passenger side or if it doesn't matter, mine's always been on the driver's side.

Wasn't sure if to would help since its a different carb but put it up while I looked in the FSM. Which at this time is also a no go and I am about to get in the car for the 10 hour trip home.

[flyinlow]

When you're in my neck of the woods come knocking would ya?  I owe you a few beers so dar for all the help.   

Thanks for offer. You know I am a Buckeye? Offer still good? 

[flyinlow]

I did check My '73 FSM  All TQ's for that year set the float at 1 1/16" with gasket installed on an inverted air horn. This is a lower fuel level that yours at 29/32" Measure at the end farthest from the needle and seat. With the engine shaking and the car moving, the fuel level bob's up and down some anyway.


http://www.moparnuts.com/images/stuff/Tquad2.pdf

[Dino]

When you're in my neck of the woods come knocking would ya?  I owe you a few beers so dar for all the help.   

Thanks for offer. You know I am a Buckeye? Offer still good? 

Oh heck yeah, I don't get the whole rivalry thing, it's all good to me!

[Dino]

I did check My '73 FSM  All TQ's for that year set the float at 1 1/16" with gasket installed on an inverted air horn. This is a lower fuel level that yours at 29/32" Measure at the end farthest from the needle and seat. With the engine shaking and the car moving, the fuel level bob's up and down some anyway.


http://www.moparnuts.com/images/stuff/Tquad2.pdf

If I can't get it fixed any other way I'll open up the carb and recheck everything, starting with the floats.

I could barely find the damper in that dark pit aka my engine bay so I tuned it by ear.  I don't have a tach so I looked up some vids on youtube to hear what 2500 - 3000 rpm sounds like and tried to match it.   

I capped the distributor advance and the port on the carb, loosened the clamp down bolt and revved up the engine.  Once I could hold it nice and steady I turned the distributor clockwise and rpm went up quite a bit.  When I found the highest rpm it turned it back just a tad and clamped it down.  I lowered the idle, reconnected vacuum advance and took it for a spin.  Way better but still bogging in 2nd and 3rd.  I can get more speed out of it but she's still not happy.  When I was doing 35-40 mph I floored it and it bogged, three times in a row and fourth time it launched...and then stumbled again until I let off the gas.  When I'm at speed and put the trans in neutral and floor it it is crisp throughout the range but under load it does not want to go.  It had gotten much worse in the last few days. Up to the point where I really couldn't drive much over 35 comfortably.  This made it much better but still work to do.

I hooked up the vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum and got a reading of 13 at idle and 19 at high rpm.  The needle bounces a bit at idle due to the cam but when I up the idle a bit it levels to about 14.  Before I had an idle of about 8, I forget what it was at high rpm but it's in one of my threads, I'll find it.

When I look down the carb while tapping the gas, I see the two nozzles squirt about the same volume, not a jet but a nice stream.  I'll try to take a pic or video once it stops raining.  There's absolutely no bog, the throttle is very responsive when in park or neutral. 

I also need to go back and reread how this whole choke plate and fast cam thing is supposed to work.  The choke plate always seems to stay open, if I close the door it dies but I guess that's what it's supposed to do!  The secondary air door seems to stick when I push it all the way down but it springs back nicely when I push it down almost all the way.  I'll check the linkage.  The play I have on the air door is to rebuild specs but I know they're finicky so I may have to redo the spring tension setting.

I also need to figure out the metering rod setting again, I keep forgetting how to do that.

Idle mixture screws are about 2 1/4 turns out although I have not rechecked, I just set them to have max vacuum.  They were at 2 1/2 turns out when I started and turning them didn't do a whole lot.  I hear that's normal with this cam though.

So currently it sounds wild and super responsive when in park. I don't think it could me much smoother.  Same with the idle, it's running way more quiet now for some reason. nice and clean.  The exhaust was smelling a bit rich but I did do a lot of flooring in the 30 minutes preceding the smell test so I may have just flooded the whole thing.

I sure hope I can get it to run properly, the carb is very promising and I'm really impressed with what it can do even when not tuned properly.

I have not yet done the fuel pressure test or actually looked at what my timing is currently at.  This could be an ignition curve problem could it not?

[flyinlow]

Don Garlits, Richard Petty and Amadeous Mozart might be able to tune their engines by ear. I still need a timing light.  However I think you got some idea of the effect of ignition timing now. Some guys just keep advancing the timing until the engine detonates (pinging) on acceleration and then back off a few degrees. I recommend a good rollback timing light.

Vacuum readings are in the ballpark.  Indicates the engine is healthy

The fuel squiring into the primaries  is the accelerator pump discharge. Normal. It is there to temporarily richen the mixture as you open the throttle. That's how you can start the engine without the choke hooked up by pumping the gas petal to prime the engine. That won't work as well in the winter.

Don't worry about the choke for now ,leave it open.

Air valve should not bind. With the engine off ,there should be a light spring pressure to overcome to push the door open. With the engine idling the vacuum break will hold it shut except for the slight movement you checked for during the carb rebuild.  You can not easily see the door open just gunning the engine in park.

I have to restate one thing: TUNE THE IGNITION FIRST!  Check your fuel system delivery. When its set up then work on the carb . 

[Dino]

Yep, I will make sure ignition is set before I do anything else.  I had to take a few pictures of the damper because it's so well hidden I could not see any marks.  I'm not sure how I'm going to reach it with a paint pen but if it works I should be okay to read it.  It's hard to see but it'll work I'm sure.

This is a little cideo of the secondary air door with the engine off.  That's not normal so once ignition is set I need to remove the carb and fix the door and whatever else is going on.

http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/Dino-69/media/1969%20Dodge%20Charger/Secdoorbinds_zps78f72432.mp4.html

[Dino]

My mechanic won't have time to set the timing for at least another week.  Dammit...


Now could my problem also be a bad coil?  I found some post online about a guy having the same issue and he had the same coil.  Replaced it and everything was fine.  At around 55 the car starts sputtering but it is very consistent, as it is timed. 

I have the accell super coil, if there's something better to get I may just do that since this thing is old.

[ottawamerc]

My mechanic won't have time to set the timing for at least another week.  Dammit...


Now could my problem also be a bad coil?  I found some post online about a guy having the same issue and he had the same coil.  Replaced it and everything was fine.  At around 55 the car starts sputtering but it is very consistent, as it is timed. 

I have the accell super coil, if there's something better to get I may just do that since this thing is old.

Could be in an related way I had a marine engine do that to me too took me a long time and many parts swapping before I found the wire going to the coil had broken down and was causing the issue. It idled great but under load and higher RPM it would miss, changed the wire and VOILA! So in saying that maybe a defective ballast resistor or the wrong one?

Scott

[Dino]

My mechanic won't have time to set the timing for at least another week.  Dammit...


Now could my problem also be a bad coil?  I found some post online about a guy having the same issue and he had the same coil.  Replaced it and everything was fine.  At around 55 the car starts sputtering but it is very consistent, as it is timed. 

I have the accell super coil, if there's something better to get I may just do that since this thing is old.

Could be in an related way I had a marine engine do that to me too took me a long time and many parts swapping before I found the wire going to the coil had broken down and was causing the issue. It idled great but under load and higher RPM it would miss, changed the wire and VOILA! So in saying that maybe a defective ballast resistor or the wrong one?

Scott

Is this the ballast resistor on the firewall or is there another?  I know you have to run a second one when you have points but didn't know of another with electronic ignition. 

I never even checked the wires, I'll do that first.  I also looked up the resistance for that coil so I'll put the meter on it and see what it says. 

Since the issue started when I swapped carbs, I figured it would not be related to anything else (save timing) but coincedence does happen.  Heck for all I know I knicked a wire when that flex fan snapped off and took out the radiator.

[flyinlow]

The air valve should not stick.

35 years ago The Super coil was not so super. I had one go bad . A buddy had trouble with one also. Not sure if they are more reliable now.

Basic coil test: Take a cotter pin and spread it slightly. Remove the coil wire and insert the cotter pin in its place.  Clip a small jumper lead to a pair of insulated handle pliers. Ground the other end to the engine. Hold the coil wire against the  cotter pin with the grounded pliers . Have someone start the car. Slowly pull the coil wire away from the cotter pin. you should see a blue spark jumping the gap. You should be able to jump 1/2 inch or more before the engine quits. Don't do this indirect sunlight , harder to see. If your coil wires insulation is good and you use the pliers correctly , you will not get shocked.    They do sell non metallic pliers for this test.

You can also check the coil resistance with an ohmmeter. Disconnect the primary wires and read across the two terminals. Accel website might have the correct reading.

[Dino]

Yep air door needs work but it's not that bad to do so no biggie.  I don't think the air door is the issue though, it's really sounding like it's an ignition thing.  I remember many years ago my motorcycle would start sputtering like this, not an uneven sputter but a nicely timed interval stutter.  Turned out to be the coil but I also remembered it didn't do that until it got hot, the Charger seems to do it all the time.  It also takes forever for it to get hot with the new fan,  Maybe I'm focusing too much on the temp gauge as before I didn't have to and the temps is the same.  I just want to make sure everything stays within normal range.

I found the super coil specs so I'll see what the numbers read on mine.  I'll do the resistance thing before I try to make the spark jump, been there, done that, have the scars.   

[Dino]

Quick question on float level.

There is no clear height setting for these aftermarket brass floats and I think I have mine set higher than stock already. 

I would like to ignore the numbers for a minute and just tweak until it runs nice, what a novel idea eh?   

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

[71 SE3834V]

Quick question on float level.

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

One thing, you can get fuel dripping out the nozzles when the engine is off. So therefore it could drip when idling. When at idle you shouldn't see any fuel coming out the nozzles cause with the throttle plates closed there shouldn't be any vacuum above the plates so the fuel should only be passing through the idle circuit/ports.

Dino......for the price of the fuel you could have your timing set. I'll be at the Wayne cruise tomorrow. I'll throw the light in the trunk if you want to meet me.

[Dino]

Quick question on float level.

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

One thing, you can get fuel dripping out the nozzles when the engine is off. So therefore it could drip when idling. When at idle you shouldn't see any fuel coming out the nozzles cause with the throttle plates closed there shouldn't be any vacuum above the plates so the fuel should only be passing through the idle circuit/ports.

Dino......for the price of the fuel you could have your timing set. I'll be at the Wayne cruise tomorrow. I'll throw the light in the trunk if you want to meet me.

Thanks for the offer!   

I would love to come over but I'm not sure I want to drive it beyond my sub.  There's no way I can get it running decent above 50 nor can I stomp on it so I can't rely on the car to act quickly when I need it to.

If I feel brave and change my mind I will let you know.

Thanks again for the offer, I really appreciate it.   

The Jackson rd. cruise is going on in Ann Arbor tomorrow as well, strange that they'd do them on the same day.

[71 SE3834V]

I've only skimmed over some of the posts so I might have missed this. Have you checked for timing chain slop? You mentioned a cam but I'm wondering what condition the chain is in.
You state the car bogs. Mine ran fine on the primaries but if I kicked in the secondaries it ran like the firing order was all wacked up. At higher rpm's it was like it had a rev limiter on it. Finally checked the timing chain slop and the crank would move 13-15* before the rotor would move. So the cam is running 15* behind where it should be.

I'll second the notion that you need to know all the electrical (and mechanical) is right before you mess w/the fuel.

[Dino]

As soon as I have the time, I'll put the eddy carb back on and see how she does.  It'll run rich but it should run through the entire band without sputtering. 

Not sure about the chain, it's certainly a possibility. 

Besides the carb swap the only change to the car was adding a thermal clutch and new fan when the old fan snapped.  Any chance that jolt could've done damage anywhere?

[71 SE3834V]

I don't know. Seems possible but all I'm saying is mine seemed to run good when I put it away last fall and when I got it out I replaced the dist before driving it. It ran like crap. Thought I had a bad rebuilt dist. cause "that's what I had just replaced". Checked plugs, compression (seemed decent for 40 yr old car, all w/in 10%), triple checked firing order, readjusted points & timing, checked rocker movement & finally checked the chain slop. I had a suspicion it was going last year as the timing mark was jumping around a bit and the engine sounded a little "ratty" at the top end but I could break the tire loose at will and could get a chirp at the 1-2 shift but this year if I stomped on it, it would fall on it's face.

[flyinlow]

Quick question on float level.

There is no clear height setting for these aftermarket brass floats and I think I have mine set higher than stock already. 

I would like to ignore the numbers for a minute and just tweak until it runs nice, what a novel idea eh?   

If I set the floats too high, what will happen?  Constant flooding?  I need to know what to look for so I can recognize when the fuel level in the bowl is too high, that way I can readjust until I find the sweet spot.

I don't think that minor float level changes will dramatically effect your carb. As long as your jets remain covered with fuel during all phases of driving and the fuel level is not so high that fuel is not dribbling out  of the  carb at idle or engine off the carb should work.

If you have a known good carb, you can try it.

[flyinlow]

Not sure if you have tried this. Disconnect and plug the vacuum line to the distributor. Test drive.

[Dino]

I sure hope it's not the chain, but I put it on the list.

Makes sense about the floats and I didn't think it would cause this much of an issue.  I did find several posts about TQ owners who reset the level a minute amount and solved their issue.  I don't know why but I'm leaving the floats until all else fails.  The more I find about similar issues, the more I believe the secondary air door may be the culprit here.

I have tested the car with vacuum advance connected and blocked and I don't feel any difference which I though was odd.  Right now it's capped.

Eddy carb will be back on today so I will post back with the results.

[Dino]

Alright, it's the carb!

I put the eddy back on and this time got the linkage working correctly.  I still can't get it lean enough at idle even though vacuum is 15 at idle and it sounds real nice.  My eyes didn't burn standing behind the exhaust this time but still smelling rich.  It also settled in a nice idle right after starting it up and without the choke it's not supposed to do that.

Taking it on the road I knew right away the TQ was the issue because now the car pulled in all gears without a single hiccup.  The 1407 lacks the punch of the TQ and the crispness but it ran real nice.  I can't spin the tires with this carb easily, something that was easier with the TQ, but I can drive it anywhere as it is.  I punched it a lot once it was hot and never smelled the fuel like I used to.  I'm not sure why the eddy decided to run so much better all of a sudden but it does.  I ran it with vacuum advance blocked, ported and full manifold and the latter made it run even better.  I have more testing to do though.

I'll open up the TQ and start over.  At least now we know where the problem lies.

[71 SE3834V]

Cool! Now ya got no excuse to come get your.....learn how to set your timing. And I've got questions on body work. Got nothin to do tomorrow. If I get bored enough I might have to yank the car out of storage and do something to it.

[Dino]

Finally had the time to look at the TQ again.  I set the floats as high as I could, gave the secondary air door a bit more tension and made sure it didn't stick any longer.

It fired right up and settled in a high idle.  Quite a lot of blue smoke coming out the tail pipes though.  I took it around the block and warmed it up.  Pulled over and checked the exhaust, no more blue smoke.  The bog at higher rpm is gone, the car pulled through all gears real nice and I can finally roast the tires again! 

And then it went south.  I was driving it back home when I came to a stop.  I let off the gas and coasted to the stop, but the idle got so low it started to run bad.  When I was almost stopped, the power assist on the brakes went out, 2 seconds later the car died.  I popped it in neutral and turned the key but nothing.  I floored it and tried again and it reluctantly fired up, but ran rough.  Pulled over again, tried to set the idle but every time I gave it some gas it would settle in a different rpm.  Back on the way home, car ran like a champ but as soon as I let off the gas the idle would get freakishly low and power brakes would go out again.  Once more it stalled so I pulled off the road.  I cranked and cranked and finally after flooring it it fired up again.  Rough idle but once past 1000 - 1200 rpm t runs like a dream.

I have to do more adjustments obviously and I need to reset the linkage again.

Does anyone have an idea why is it doing this?  Too rich or too lean at idle?  Floats too high maybe?

At least I got that bog out!

[cdr]

sounds like the floats are to high,or needles & seats are not sealing.

[Dino]

sounds like the floats are to high,or needles & seats are not sealing.

Needles and seats seat nicely and metering rod is tweaked.  The floats however must be too high.  It would certainly explain the rough starting and rough idle, not sure about the smoke though.  I'll reset the floats today and give it another shot.

[cdr]

sounds like the floats are to high,or needles & seats are not sealing.

Needles and seats seat nicely and metering rod is tweaked.  The floats however must be too high.  It would certainly explain the rough starting and rough idle, not sure about the smoke though.  I'll reset the floats today and give it another shot.

if it is running VERY rich from a float issue it will smoke.

[Dino]

Raised the floats a tad, set the kickdown linkage and she runs real sweet with no bogs anywhere and very nice power.  The tires spin happily once more!   

Vacuum got a bit closer to 16 at idle, no smoke, no fuel smell, nothing.  Only when I really punch it can I smell some gas, but that doesn't seem out of the ordinary either.  Timing has been set and everything seems great but now it'll detonate when you first fire up the car.  Need I retard it a bit?

I have vacuum advance disconnected.  Tried full vacuum for giggles and idled a bit weird, like a staccato.  I'll try ported on my way home from work, not sure if it'll do anything.  Strangely enough, my idle goes up with full manifold vacuum so you'd think that's good!  Also my vacuum reading went from 15 to almost 16 when I turned the idle set screws out to 3 turns, up from 2.  That gave me a bit more of a fuel small at the exhaust but not by much.

After this week I'll be in CA for 2 so I hope all goes well driving it this week.  When I return I can do the work I've been wanting to do and I can do it knowing the car will run fine when I'm done.   

[flyinlow]

Good news   :

Well Grasshopper, if you have mastered the Thermoquad, you are a true Doctor of Carburation .

[Dino]

Good news   :

Well Grasshopper, if you have mastered the Thermoquad, you are a true Doctor of Carburation .

I wouldn''t go that far Master Po but thanks!   

Although nowhere near as bad as with the eddy, I have more of a fuel smell than I had before with the TQ so either the floats need to be dropped a tad more, or I have it running too rich at idle.  I suspect the latter as it runs a bit too nice at cold start.  I do have to feather it but not for long and not nearly as long as with the first try so that's telling me it's too rich.  No smoke though.  I may turn the idle screws back in, lose a tad of vacuum and see what it does.  Still running with vacuum advance blocked and it does run very nice, no complaints.  No bogs, no stumble, no hesitation.  Runs and feels like a modern car + the aroma of the old.   

[Dino]

A little update:

I drove home from work with ported vacuum advance and promptly pulled into the first parking lot to cap it, the car has always run with vacuum advance but the idle just doesn't sound right this time.  Seems to run just fine when capped so that's how it's gonna be!

I turned the idle mixture screws from 3 out to 2 3/4 while it was warming up and 5 minutes later there was very little fuel smell, I had to get real close to the tailpipe.  I may turn it in a bit more though as it still runs too easy when cold.  I don't think it's supposed to run this well without the choke. 

Still smelling fuel and exhaust under moderate and hard acceleration but nowhere near what it once was.  When I used to back up into the garage, the place would smell like fuel and exhaust for quite a while, I have to leave doors and window open to air it out.  This time when I pull in I can barely smell anything but come back a little later and fuel smell galore!  Are the floats still too high maybe?    
Any other reason why it might be venting fuel after shutting it off?