727 trans mod questions

[Dino]

I am wondering if there is any benefit to installing a shift kit or something.  I don't know much about transmissions hence this post as I know some of you know these things inside out.

My '69 has a '71 440 hp and since the drivetrain was plucked form a squad car I can only assume the 727 is the same year.  I don't know the specs of the engine and the previous owner wasn't sure either.  He thinks it may be this one as he told me 0.474" lift, 283 degree duration.  It's the closest match I could find

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4452992ae/overview/

I use this car as a daily driver so 95% of the time the car is running on 35 and 55mph roads, with 5% of the time stepping on the gas just because I want to.  Usually I take off from a stop and take it to 60 before I let off so no major racing going on here.
I do take it on the highway when needed but it must've been over a year since I have.

I rarely get into the high rpm range, I'm usually cruising so torque is key here.

I put 2.96 gears in the back to keep the rpm down and the 28" tall tire does help a bit also...but the damn thing is still missing a gear (or 2-3).

I don't have time to stick a T-56 in there so I was wondering if there is anything I can do to make this thing more fun.

Apart from lacking a gear, it cruises real nice, it has never given me trouble but I feel I need to give it quite a bit of gas before it starts moving.  Maybe it's not abnormal but I just don't like the car going into that rpm range every time I push on the pedal, especially in stop and go traffic.  I don't want to have two feet on the brake at a red light either but I would like the car to move as soon as I push the gas pedal, or as close to that goal as possible.  Is this doable or should I just suck it up and wait until I can do the 6 speed install?  This may not be done until I graduate...about 4 years from now.

Also, how well does the manual shift kit work?  I would love to have a manual trans in this car so maybe it's a good temporary fix?  For those who installed one and drive their car a lot, is it worth it?

I hope I don't have to swap the cam as I've never done so before and again time is an issue but if that's what needs to happen then so be it.

[JB400]

All a shift kit does is make the shifts firmer.  From what it sounds like, what you need to do is swap in 3.23's since a trans swap is out of the question.  2.96 gears are lugging your engine and it takes more rpms for a longer period to get the car moving.  You could get a different cam, but that might take a weekend to install and get right.  If you have another 3rd member, a set of gears can be put in, in a couple of hours.

[Dino]

I had 3.55's in there and it was pretty much the same.  I'd go nuts with the high rpm, I think the 2.96 is not even high enough!   
 
I know it's slower off the line but a 440 should have no issues here, and I don't think it does.  When I push the go pedal it will move, but it takes too long for the gear to kick in and in stop and go traffic it really gets my attention.  What about swapping the torque converter?  I'm so used to having my car move once I release the clutch that I would like my auto to feel roughly the same, maybe it's not doable.   

[Brass]

Did you have this problem before switching gears?  The 2.96 gears may be turning the car into a slug.  Also, do you have a tach in the car?  I'm wondering if the engine was/is rev'ing as high as you believe it is.

Unless something else is wrong, like transmission slipping, I think 3.23 gears are the answer.  I have those in my car, with a 26" tire, and drove 360 miles on a round trip last weekend holding 65-70 mph at about 2800 rpm.  

If you stay mostly between 35-55 for shorter distances, as you say you do, the 3.23 should be perfect.  A healthy 440 should have no problem cruising at those speeds with 3.23 gears.  Those would also give you snappier starts while still having a top speed well north of 100 mph.  

Here is a useful tool to calculate what rpm range you will be spinning using different gear ratios:

http://vexer.com/automotive-tools/speed-rpm-calculator

Good luck!

[Dino]

Brass I have to be honest and say that I do believe I may find out the rpm is lower than what I think it is.  The car sounds pretty aggressive and there's a lot of outside noise entering the car.  I had a Sun tach but it was way off.  I'm not running one currently.  I'd like to have one for a tool though so I can tune the carb better and find out what rpm it's running for cases like this!  Are there any good tachs you can temporarily mount on the dash or something?

I'm sure it's true that I'm turning this car into a slug.  I haven't tried but I'm pretty sure I'd have a tough time making my new and wider tires squeal.  The thing is, it's such a big engine that as a 'slug' it's still beast enough to be a menace out there.  When I say go it goes.  When I drive my Accord 4 banger and  pass a car on the 55 mph I daily travel, it's one at a time.  The engine's revving and not a whole lot else going on.   
With the Charger I usually pass 3 or 4 in no time at all.  This engine is real happy doing 55!  Gotta love torque!


My ultimate goal is to have a T-56 with a matching gear so it'll be quick off the line and can cruise at low rpm.  Best of both worlds!  I really don't want to lose the cruising rpm I have now but if I can't get the 727 to be snappier then I'll have to accept that.  I can't have my cake and eat it all the time.   

[Brass]

Another option is a Gear Vendors unit with a .78 overdrive.  But in that case I would definitely ditch the 2.96 gears.

[firefighter3931]

The problem, plain and simple, is the camshaft.    You have a grind that doesn't start building power until 2500 rpm and you're lugging the engine at low speeds. I know that isn't what you want to hear but that's the reality of the situation. 


Ron

[Dino]

The problem, plain and simple, is the camshaft.    You have a grind that doesn't start building power until 2500 rpm and you're lugging the engine at low speeds. I know that isn't what you want to hear but that's the reality of the situation. 


Ron

Well, here's the situation.  I am trying to have all I want, for as little effort as possible...and it ain't flyin'!   

I love the sound my car makes, especially at idle.  Not only do I not want to lose that sound, my wife would kill me if she couldn't hear that engine shake.  She loves it even more than I do!   

Will the cam I need still give me that sound or is it going to tame it down?  When the time comes and the T-56  is in, will I want to stick this cam back in or does it not have anything to do with that but everything with the speeds I drive?

I need to be realistic and pick one scenario and since I doubt anything major will be done to this car for years to come I need to pick the practical one...but keeping the sound or at least something that still makes you grin like a moron.   

So am I correct in assuming more torque is in order?  So new cam or new gears...what cam would you recommend Ron?  I know brand wise the lunati's seem to be popular among others but what numbers am I looking for?  I kinda get what the lobes do but the numbers are out of my reach. 

For the record...I know I sound like I'm having issues with my car and apart from the flex fan grenading on me, I love this car to death!  I have it ready for the new parts I hopefully have tomorrow.  I love driving this car so much that I literally drive it more than my 'daily', except in winter, they can be nasty here.

I'm just trying to figure all these things out.  Best setup for everything so I can make this car run as best as I possibly can, for my application.  This is my 3rd 2nd gen and this one is not going anywhere!

I enjoy this car every single day because even when it doesn't run, all I have to do is look at it.   

[Cooter]

Common mistake people make when selecting camshafts on sound alone. (I did it too). They want it to sound good, like Don Garlits rail just fired up, but don't want the 10 MPG that goes with it. Ever seen what a 3000 Converter's fluid looks like with a 440 and 2:96 Gears? It will look like the engine oil in about 40 miles. Cooked. High stalls and OD/Highway gears, no go without a "Lock up" type torque converter. That's how all these 5.0 guys are doing it with AOD's. Lock up converters are the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to 4500 Stall converters and Cruising an OD trans.

Ever wonder what some of these 700 HP engines, with camshafts in the 260 @ .050 range will drive like at 1300 RPM's in Overdrive with T56?  Lemme put it this way...

The General Lee has 3:23 gears and a T-5 trans with .68 OD; Big ol Purple shaft .484/284 (241 @ .050) cam in it. Wanna know what it's like to drive that thing in OD around here @65 MPH At 1500 RPM???  SUCKS! Can't pull a greasy string out a cats azz. Have to down shift to 4th gear to pull a hill. Yes, even with a 440.

[Dino]

I hear ya Cooter!  At that rpm I'm not going anywhere.  I am going to do my best to research cam shafts and what to look for, so here's hoping the cooling stuff will be fixed without too much problems and the TQ won't need much tuning.  (yeah right!)

Maybe I can win some sound back by installing some ultra flows...

[Cooter]

The only Real world fix Dino?

Supercharged.....Blown......Boost.....

[firefighter3931]

Here is Denis's 66 Charger. Lots of torque with fantastic throttle response 

Cam : Crower HDP 271
Exhaust : Headers + UltraFlows


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9xOgxgui54&list=FLvf4i4Pqk8Ux8Mvx00qMoVQ



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Big cam +tall tires + crazy highway gear = no fun. I don't care how big of a motor you put in it. That combo will always be a turd. Even a stock cam will be quite sluggish with those gears and tire.

[mauve66]

ya need a new hemi..................................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tyRVj7RYgg

[Needa68]

Dino.... For what it's worth I replaced the stock torque converter behind my 440 with a 2800 stall converter to get the low end torque I wanted. My 440 like yours has a higher than stock lift cam. It also has Keith Black flat top pistons and a few other goodies. I'm running a sure grip rear end with 3:23 gears. The converter change solved my low end torque issue. It also freed the engine up so it would idle properly. However, this change will not solve your desire to reduce rpm's on the open highway. An overdrive unit or one of Kessler's 727 replacement overdrive transmissions is needed to give you that extra gear you feel you need. I put one of the Kessler transmissions in a friends Roadrunner. It was costly but it reduced his highway cruise rpm's by 20%.  I hope this helps.

[Brass]

The problem, plain and simple, is the camshaft.    You have a grind that doesn't start building power until 2500 rpm and you're lugging the engine at low speeds. I know that isn't what you want to hear but that's the reality of the situation. 


Ron

I hear you, Ron - but isn't the camshaft the problem because it's paired with 2.96 gears?  Instead of switching the cam, couldn't he also solve the issue by matching the cam he already has to a friendlier gear ratio?  Stall becomes a question - but I suspect that a lower gear would bring the cam into it's powerband earlier than it is now - where Dino is looking for more punch.  It seems that the reason the car is doing better at speed, when he goes to pass, is because the rpms are already up around 2500 when he lays on it.  But it's lugging down low.  My guess is a lower range and letting the 440 find its legs (RPM) would help.  I could be wrong - I just have a hard time accepting that 2.96 gears are necessary to cruise comfortably at 55 mph.  Those are freeway gears - and Dino hasn't taken the car onto the freeway in a year.

Btw, I used to think my engine was spinning faster than it really was.  Engine sound, road noise, and wind doesn't necessarily mean the engine is revving too high.  Sometimes the engine still sounds like its working hard until I get on the highway - but there is a lot of range left to tap.  The car wraps up a few hundred more, sure - but then it settles in for the ride.