Hard start when warm

[Big Sugar]

Ok.   Have. Little issue when starting the 440 after reaching normal running temp.   The motor fires up well when cold turns over quick and fires fast, motor is running well and is strong, battery is good and the alternator is charging normaly,   Noticed that if i run 18+ degrees of initial timing it has a hard start symptom (starter has a hard time turning the motor seems to load up on the starter) when I back the timing back don to 16 degrees the starter seems to have less trouble,   I bypassed the starter relay with a remote button and with the key off the motor turns over fine
As it normally would, but when a switch the key to the start position and hit the button it struggles to turn over.            
  So it seems my battery and grounds are good  and the trouble seems ignition related.     Only change to the engine since this started was a new cam and timing gear setup and a freshening up, the headers are now ceramic coated and that may have moved the heat down a little closer to the starter, ( gear reduction mini )

Any ideas ?    

When the car does start with the warm motor it runs and idles well ? Its not hot nor is it pinging ,  right now im on 94 octain with 16* initial and 34* all in by 3100 rpm
Ran it all week on 91 octain and 18* initial. With no pinging.    Wanting to try it at 20* initial but its the strating issue will leave me stranded should. Need to shut it down.

Ron


Ron

[Ghoste]

The problems of modern fuel formulations?

[b5blue]

What intake? (Aluminum?) Is the heat blocked off to the intake?  Makes a big difference with modern fuel for restart.

[firefighter3931]

Ron, the big stroker in my car turns over fine, hot or cold with the timing locked out at 34* 

It sounds like a heat soak issue with the starter or a weak battery or excessive resistance in the cables...or insufficient grounding.

With new paint in the engine bay, my bet is on insufficient grounds.


Ron

[Big Sugar]

Hey Ron, checked the grounds and they all looked good, thats what i thought it was, then we thought heat soak on the starter, it was fine before all the work.
again with the key in the off position with a hot engine it'll turn over fast with a remote start of the selenoid  but when we turn the key to the start position it struggled almost like to much compression overwhelming the starter.


Strange

Ron

[Big Sugar]

What intake? (Aluminum?) Is the heat blocked off to the intake?  Makes a big difference with modern fuel for restart.

Yeah heat is blocked off, six pack aluminum intake.

Ron

[b5blue]

I'm trying to think what would lean out a warmed up six pack.......

[Big Sugar]

Your thinking its a little hot ! And the engine it tight ?     My stat i s reading 180 when warm, and the engine will spin quickly on occasion when starting warm but most times it seems to struggle till she fires, usually pretty quick to fire.


Ron
Should grab a digital temp gun and check for hot spots

[justcruisin]

It sounds like you have done a few tests, if it was OK before the cam swap it may be a compression issue, the engine may be a little harder to swing when hot and if you have extra compression it is putting it over the top. In saying that if your starter, battery and cables are good you shouldn't have a problem with 200psi. Did you degree the cam? Mine cranks hot or cold with 180psi and 18 degrees initial timing with a factory starter. Something is probably not up to par. I'd be pulling the starter and having a look at the armature and brush gear. Look for any signs of heat on the commutator, if it is a soldered commutator, check for a ring of solder around the top of the field coils, this is a sure sign of a over heated starter, check there is no arching on the end cap where the brush plate is fitted to the end housing and check the through bolts are tight. Mini starters can have up to 2kw's, if you buy a replacement, check what you are getting. Also - it would be a good idea to put a clamp meter on your main cable and check current draw when cold and again when it is hard to crank, also check draw when hot with key off.

[Big Sugar]

Makes sense , ill get to that on Monday and let you know.

Thanks

Ron

[b5blue]

Your thinking its a little hot ! And the engine it tight ?     My stat i s reading 180 when warm, and the engine will spin quickly on occasion when starting warm but most times it seems to struggle till she fires, usually pretty quick to fire.


Ron
Should grab a digital temp gun and check for hot spots

I had heat soak issues with my six pack when it had the 509 cam and iron closed chamber heads. (Ported 915 castings, I think.) Rebuild was a Mopar RR cam and 346 heads w heat blocked. Much better but then found issues with float needle seats and leaking metering plates that would mimic heat soak. Now warm it fires instantly.  You using a Idle solenoid?   

[1ofnone]

Ron it sounds strictly electrical due to turning fine on remote button . Try a voltage drop test from pos. term. to starter lug with both remote and key . If a big difference is shown move lead on starter lug back on connection at a time till you see were the drop is . this can be done on neg. side as well  hope it helps 

[Big Sugar]

Your thinking its a little hot ! And the engine it tight ?     My stat i s reading 180 when warm, and the engine will spin quickly on occasion when starting warm but most times it seems to struggle till she fires, usually pretty quick to fire.


Ron
Should grab a digital temp gun and check for hot spots

I had heat soak issues with my six pack when it had the 509 cam and iron closed chamber heads. (Ported 915 castings, I think.) Rebuild was a Mopar RR cam and 346 heads w heat blocked. Much better but then found issues with float needle seats and leaking metering plates that would mimic heat soak. Now warm it fires instantly.  You using a Idle solenoid?   

Funny i just replaced my 509 cam .....?   Worth looking into.    Thanks

Ron it sounds strictly electrical due to turning fine on remote button . Try a voltage drop test from pos. term. to starter lug with both remote and key . If a big difference is shown move lead on starter lug back on connection at a time till you see were the drop is . this can be done on neg. side as well  hope it helps 

Thanks Ray. We're gonna do a few load tests on Monday after work.

Ron

[Big Sugar]

Well we checked the starter on monday and found a stripped bold not tightening dow on the posative leed so we pulled the starter and sent it out for a repair, they replaced the inside contact bushings as well as two new bult terminals no Charge...Nice.

We reinstalled the Starter and the Charger lit up in a splt second , But today after a 20 minute run i needed to make a quick 3  minute stop and .......Hot Starter syndrome again ! Just like a dead battery no power to turn the motor over swiftly.. But after another 5 minute cool down  it spun the motor fast ?

Only real Changes we made prior to this problem were, K member splash sheild added (could be allowing more heat buildup while driving) and Ceramic coating on the TTI headers ?   its a Denso Mini Starter.


Any Ideas ?
\
Ron

[firefighter3931]

Only real Changes we made prior to this problem were, K member splash sheild added (could be allowing more heat buildup while driving) and Ceramic coating on the TTI headers ?   its a Denso Mini Starter.

Any Ideas ?
\
Ron

I'd remove the splash shield and road test again ; quite possible the shield is not allowing enough fresh air to adequately cool the starter 

The ceramic header coating is a non-issue....if anything it is helping 



Ron

[Kern Dog]

This isn't anything new.
ALL high performance engines that I have seen tend to crank slower with a warm engine. I had a similar problem with the Charger. I had a stock MP mini starter in it, then tried a Powermaster. The centering nose split so I tried another Powermaster. So far, all three were slow cranking with a warm engine. THEN I tried a Denso starter from Mancini racing. THIS was the cure. The cranking will be slower with MORE initial spark advance since the starter is working against the spark lead. The simple fix is.....
Buy a better starter.

[firefighter3931]

This isn't anything new.
ALL high performance engines that I have seen tend to crank slower with a warm engine. I had a similar problem with the Charger. I had a stock MP mini starter in it, then tried a Powermaster. The centering nose split so I tried another Powermaster. So far, all three were slow cranking with a warm engine. THEN I tried a Denso starter from Mancini racing. THIS was the cure. The cranking will be slower with MORE initial spark advance since the starter is working against the spark lead. The simple fix is.....
Buy a better starter.

The starter could be an issue so it might need replacing if the problem persists. 

I purchased a mini starter off e-bay vendor "DB Electrical" for ~$65 and it has been flawless so far....turns the 572 over easily, hot or cold   


Ron

[68CoronetRT]

I bought from the same vendor as firefighter. Not installed yet but will be when I'm done buttoning up my motor.

Here is a link to ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=db+electrical&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=db+electrical+440&_sacat=0

[Big Sugar]

Hey. Quick question,  would that new cam change the compression load on the starter ?   Could it be that the old .509 
MP cam was easier on the starter than the newer Lunati 603030 cam ?



Ron

[Kern Dog]

All else being equal, a cam with more overlap and a later intake valve closing would crank easier.