SRT-8 Daytona Clone

[Baldwinvette77]

That seams to happen to me alot, as soon as i finish something, a better alternative comes up within the next month or so, and now that im not working on the car so much, the wicked deals seemed to have vanished 

[Stevearino]

That seams to happen to me alot, as soon as i finish something, a better alternative comes up within the next month or so, and now that im not working on the car so much, the wicked deals seemed to have vanished 

True. The rub here for me is that I talked to a lot of people about this and kept getting the same answer. And I started with Vintage Glass.

[djcarguy]

    Yes Iam posting??    Hey Steve think it's time to drop the clone in thread title?  maybe CUSTOM,,OR HYBREAD,,OR MODERN PROTO TYPE,, SOME thing alone these lines to go with SRT-8 an DAYTONA,AN custom craftmanship your putting in your awesum Daytona ..

        YOUR CREATING A awesum machine that is far from just a clone under the skin an appearance??

My      that DJ is posting again-%$#@!#^&*&^   HA HA HO

[Stevearino]

   Yes Iam posting??    Hey Steve think it's time to drop the clone in thread title?  maybe CUSTOM,,OR HYBREAD,,OR MODERN PROTO TYPE,, SOME thing alone these lines to go with SRT-8 an DAYTONA,AN custom craftmanship your putting in your awesum Daytona ..

       YOUR CREATING A awesum machine that is far from just a clone under the skin an appearance??

My       that DJ is posting again-%$#@!#^&*&^   HA HA HO

DJ you are always welcome to post. I appreciate your words of encouragement and enthusiasm. I considered changing the name of the thread to SRT-8 Daytona Tribute as it is more descriptive of what I am doing. But I am going to keep the title as is to avoid confusion.

[dyslexic teddybear]

JMO......

Neither clone or tribute really catch the flavor of this project.

Clone-duplicate of an original?

Tribute suggests a race inspired version..... [the 71 project is a great example]

Custom.......accurate, but seems inadequate.



An amazing blend of modern technology and an historically significant car with tasteful changes wrought by a master of fabrication.

Guess that's a bit long for a title......



Who really cares what you call it.

Just keep doing it and keep us updated!

[Stevearino]

Wow Dyslexic teddybear . That's a bit over the top but thanks for the compliment.

[dyslexic teddybear]

You know Steve, there's such a thing as being too dam humble.


Seriously, you do some incredible work. I have some experience repairing/fabricating heavier stuff like 1/4-3/8s......very, very easy compared to the little sheetmetal I've done.

So.......

[Stevearino]

You know Steve, there's such a thing as being too dam humble.


Seriously, you do some incredible work. I have some experience repairing/fabricating heavier stuff like 1/4-3/8s......very, very easy compared to the little sheetmetal I've done.

So.......

Thanks again, but I have seen too much great work on cars to get too carried away with what I am doing by comparison.  And in the day of the "selfie" there is no such thing as too humble.

[dyslexic teddybear]

I firmly believe in "those that can, do.....and let the work speak for itself."

In todays world, the opposite is those that can't do much of anything.......take a "selfie".



I have my talents, unfortunately, sheetmetal skills aren't really one of them yet. Thus I'm in awe of those that do.

[Stevearino]

I got to fooling around with the drop down headlight doors over the week end. I took one last stab at making them retractable but there is just not enough length above the openings to get the doors completely out of the the way of the headlight opening. So I went back to the drop down idea using a window motor to actuate them. I decided to hinge them from the very front of the opening as this gave me the most room to move the headlights closer to the opening. I am thinking I will also have to find an alternative to the Challenger headlights as only about 2/3 of them show through the height of the opening when the doors are down. Still playing around with that though. The doors drop really fast but the come up nicely..Here is a little video of them operating.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=858233767522857&set=vb.100000087251193&type=2&theater

[Mike DC]

I can't remember now if I've ever suggested this to you before, but have you looked into Firebird/Fiero headlight door motors from the 1980s/90s?  GM produced a car with flip-up headlights for 20 years straight so they were forced to actually sort out the system to work pretty well. 

I'm not sure about the earlier ones, but by the later years it had a manual knob (reachable with the hood open) to raise or lower the doors by hand in case of trouble.  The remaining weak point was they used nylon gears inside.  I think somebody was selling bronze replacement gears for the system on the internet.
   
These motors would be really overbuilt for the job with flat Mopar headlight doors.  GM was raising & lowering the entire headlight pods with them.

 

[Stevearino]

I can't remember now if I've ever suggested this to you before, but have you looked into Firebird/Fiero headlight door motors from the 1980s/90s?  GM produced a car with flip-up headlights for 20 years straight so they were forced to actually sort out the system to work pretty well. 

I'm not sure about the earlier ones, but by the later years it had a manual knob (reachable with the hood open) to raise or lower the doors by hand in case of trouble.  The remaining weak point was they used nylon gears inside.  I think somebody was selling bronze replacement gears for the system on the internet.
   
These motors would be really overbuilt for the job with flat Mopar headlight doors.  GM was raising & lowering the entire headlight pods with them.

 

No Mike, I don't believe you did but I will keep that in mind should this deal not work out in the long run. Another good reason to have a nose that is easily detached.

[Mike DC]

 
Also, with the GM headlight motor, I was picturing just using a single motor in the middle of the front end between the headlight doors.  Use a couple of thin metal rods/tubes stretching out either side to reach each headlight doors.  It seems like a simpler setup overall.  And it would get rid of the annoying "lazy eye" problem where one side's action looks visibly weaker than the other. 


If I was doing it this way, I would still want to basically build each headlight door pivoting assembly separately, and just use a linkage between them with some rubber bushings or U-joints or something built into it.  I would avoid trying to connect both doors too rigidly in all directions. 

Whereas if the system ends up being more like one big single rigid pivoting piece under the nose (carrying both headlight doors), it might be a problem to keep it aligned just right with the nose.  Both the nose and the big pivoting piece would each be large enough to do some flexing on their own.

[Stevearino]

 
Also, with the GM headlight motor, I was picturing just using a single motor in the middle of the front end between the headlight doors.  Use a couple of thin metal rods/tubes stretching out either side to reach each headlight doors.  It seems like a simpler setup overall.  And it would get rid of the annoying "lazy eye" problem where one side's action looks visibly weaker than the other.  


If I was doing it this way, I would still want to basically build each headlight door pivoting assembly separately, and just use a linkage between them with some rubber bushings or U-joints or something built into it.  I would avoid trying to connect both doors too rigidly in all directions.  

Whereas if the system ends up being more like one big single rigid pivoting piece under the nose (carrying both headlight doors), it might be a problem to keep it aligned just right with the nose.  Both the nose and the big pivoting piece would each be large enough to do some flexing on their own.

I have one motor mounted in the center. The doors are hinged to the nose and are removable. The pivot device has individual adjustments for each door to take up any twist in the nose. The arms that engage the doors slip through nylon grommets (self lubricating). Sorry no pictures of the mechanism as this is proof of concept stage and I need to make all the pieces in their final iteration.


EDIT: Mike I just looked at the Firebird headlight motor and ordered one. While the set up I have works I worry a little about it not being geared down for long term durability. We will see how the new motor handles the load.

[Stevearino]

Since I moved the nose back to eliminate the 1" space between it and the fenders I had to deal with the issue of it now being too narrow.
I thought about pulling it back out but it turns out it is still a bit narrow.
I thought about sectioning the nose but the easiest thing would have been to split it down the middle and re-glass it together. To late for that.
Building up the ends was out. Just too much material to add. Almost 3/8 of and inch to each side.
I took a look at the fenders and decided a risky move. I decided to cut the top edge in a pie shape about 8" back from the front ,pull it in and re-weld it. After looking at it forever I noticed that the 70 fenders actually curve in and then they go slightly straight for that distance. The fender actually seems to blend into the curve of the nose a little better now.

[Stevearino]

Here is a better shot backed off a bit.

[Mike DC]

 


Wow, that looks GREAT.  Like it was supposed to be that way in the first place. 

I gotta file that one under "Daytona custom project ideas to steal."

[Indygenerallee]

Steve, That is exactly the way I am going to do mine, except my 69 fenders that I am modding have a more natural curve towards the nose unlike the 70 fenders
which are more squared. Looks great! 

[Mike DC]

  
I wonder how many of the NASCAR Daytonas in 1969/70 were actually wearing '68/69 fenders patched at the front to work as 1970 fenders for the Daytona conversion.  They couldn't just throw on a stock set of 1970 Charger fenders w/o redoing all the wheelwell labor again.  



BTW check out this thread.  We were talking about some Daytona chassis issues including the nose/front end and also the whole body-lowering job.  One of the guys who really knows his NASCAR stuff also referred to them having built their short-track cars with less lowering work than the superspeedway cars.  Seems potentially interesting for your build, Indy.   And the nose-job topic seems relevant to Steve's build. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95831.0.html

[Indygenerallee]

Mike, I have always thought they were just 69 Fenders, because lets face it the lower valance panel section on the street cars was just welded sheetmetal on the bottom of the fenders and had the massive panel underneath back to the K frame. Thanks for the link

[Daytona R/T SE]

Since I moved the nose back to eliminate the 1" space between it and the fenders I had to deal with the issue of it now being too narrow.
I thought about pulling it back out but it turns out it is still a bit narrow.
I thought about sectioning the nose but the easiest thing would have been to split it down the middle and re-glass it together. To late for that.
Building up the ends was out. Just too much material to add. Almost 3/8 of and inch to each side.
I took a look at the fenders and decided a risky move. I decided to cut the top edge in a pie shape about 8" back from the front ,pull it in and re-weld it. After looking at it forever I noticed that the 70 fenders actually curve in and then they go slightly straight for that distance. The fender actually seems to blend into the curve of the nose a little better now.

Is that a Stinger nose?

When I closed up my nose to fender gap, it lined up with the top of the fenders just fine.

I have a Ted Janak nosecone.

[Swampwing2]

I can't remember now if I've ever suggested this to you before, but have you looked into Firebird/Fiero headlight door motors from the 1980s/90s?  GM produced a car with flip-up headlights for 20 years straight so they were forced to actually sort out the system to work pretty well. 

I'm not sure about the earlier ones, but by the later years it had a manual knob (reachable with the hood open) to raise or lower the doors by hand in case of trouble.  The remaining weak point was they used nylon gears inside.  I think somebody was selling bronze replacement gears for the system on the internet.
   
These motors would be really overbuilt for the job with flat Mopar headlight doors.  GM was raising & lowering the entire headlight pods with them.

 

The 88 Fiero (and I believe some later 87s) headlight motors are different and more desirable than the earlier ones. The 88s use a module about 4" square that senses the increased amperage of the motors hitting the stops and shut power off to the motor that way. In other words, as long as you have solid up and down mechanical stops you don't need to worry about limit switches etc. You can wire the module with an up 12 v and a down 12 v wire and a ground and be done with it. The linkage is a bit tricky as they use an over center type link to make the motors more solid when up, as opposed to just the motor gear.

[Stevearino]

 
I wonder how many of the NASCAR Daytonas in 1969/70 were actually wearing '68/69 fenders patched at the front to work as 1970 fenders for the Daytona conversion.  They couldn't just throw on a stock set of 1970 Charger fenders w/o redoing all the wheelwell labor again.  

I have no doubt some did that Mike but page 45 in the book "Supercars" has a picture of Buddy Baker in the pits. In the contrast between the shaded side of the car and the top side you can clearly see that they are 70 type fenders as there is a deviation from a smooth transition to the nose along the outer edge of the fender. Not that I knew that going in to what I did.

Is that a Stinger nose?

When I closed up my nose to fender gap, it lined up with the top of the fenders just fine.

I have a Ted Janak nosecone.

I bought the nose second hand but judging from the comments made about Stinger noses on this forum I am pretty sure that it is one.

The 88 Fiero (and I believe some later 87s) headlight motors are different and more desirable than the earlier ones. The 88s use a module about 4" square that senses the increased amperage of the motors hitting the stops and shut power off to the motor that way. In other words, as long as you have solid up and down mechanical stops you don't need to worry about limit switches etc. You can wire the module with an up 12 v and a down 12 v wire and a ground and be done with it. The linkage is a bit tricky as they use an over center type link to make the motors more solid when up, as opposed to just the motor gear.

Thanks for the information. I was in the process of ordering the motor and as a result of your advice I sent a note to the rebuilder that the type of motor you have described is the type that I am looking for. ie:internal limit sensing responding to external mechanical stops.

[Swampwing2]

Just to be clear, the motors do not have the sensor, they are just motors. The sensor is a module that is a separate box about 4"x4"x1". The module has one multi wire plug that sends power to both motors and a second multi wire plug that has the ground, up and down wires.   the module senses the amperage increase the motors need when they hit the stops and shuts off the power.

Since I used to race an 88 Fiero I had a pair of motors (and wiring and module) around and made them work on my car. Easier said than done and I am not 100% happy with them as I did not get the over center part to work right. They go up and down great but one wiggles just a bit too much for some reason. When I get everything else done, I will revisit them and make it work better,,,,,, or start over.   

[Stevearino]

Just to be clear, the motors do not have the sensor, they are just motors. The sensor is a module that is a separate box about 4"x4"x1". The module has one multi wire plug that sends power to both motors and a second multi wire plug that has the ground, up and down wires.   the module senses the amperage increase the motors need when they hit the stops and shuts off the power.

Since I used to race an 88 Fiero I had a pair of motors (and wiring and module) around and made them work on my car. Easier said than done and I am not 100% happy with them as I did not get the over center part to work right. They go up and down great but one wiggles just a bit too much for some reason. When I get everything else done, I will revisit them and make it work better,,,,,, or start over.   

So you are saying that in addition to the motors I have to get this sensor box? Got any idea what is called specifically so that I might search for it?