Tesla: full of it !

[odcics2]

Chrysler: Tesla not first to repay loans

Posted on May 22nd, 2013 • by Bill Cawthon



Today, Tesla Motors issued a press release saying saying the company had wired 4451.8 million to the government and had paid off the entire loan it had received from the Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing loan program.  In the announcement, the company said, " Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government."

Gualberto Ranieri, Chrysler group's Senior Vice President of Communications , was quick to put the record straight:

Posting on the Chrysler blog, Ranieri said, "The information is unmistakably incorrect. It's pretty well-known that almost exactly two years ago – May 24, 2011 – Chrysler Group LLC repaid (in full and with interest) U.S. and Canadian government loans more than six years ahead of schedule.

"Question: short memory or short-circuit?"

Update: The Detroit News has now also covered this exchange, however, their article brought up the $1.3 billion loaned to Chrysler LLC, the company owned by Cerberus Capital Management, before it declared bankruptcy. Even after all this time, the News hasn't figured out that the earlier loan cannot be held against Chrysler Group LLC, because it never received it. Chrysler LLC's debt, like the company's other obligations, went with it into bankruptcy and must be repaid from the assets being sold by Old Carco, the company charged with the liquidation of the old Chrysler LLC. Chrysler Group LLC not only does not owe this money, it cannot legally pay it under U.S. bankruptcy law.

Therefore, Mr. Ranieri's comments are completely truthful and correct: Chrysler Group LLC did repay its loans from the U.S. and Canadian governments, in full and with all interest accrued, in 2011 and Tesla is not the only American car company to have fully repaid the government. And if anyone wants to dispute Chrysler Group's standing as an American car company, it is registered in Delaware as a U.S. corporation.

[Budnicks]

I though I saw something about Tesla allegedly having serious trouble or possibly Going under, or re-organization or something, not very long ago, over spending on the new bigger model a flop & not producing product.... Hummm I smell a big fat rat here, something smell really bad... something is not right or my memory is totally gone...   wasn't there allegedly a bunch of law suits also, from the dealers against the Tesla Motor Company too, just before they bought the old NUMMI plant here in Calif., Freemont area

[twodko]

That smacks familiar to me as well. Few can afford a Tesla.......wonder where they got the money to repay the Feds.......or is this more corporate smoke being blown up our collective asses. 

[Steve P.]

Yeah, something is off.. But who knows? It may have been the big 3 trying to keep Tesla down or hell only knows what..

From what I have read, they have plans for 3-4 years from now having a new model on the road and open to the public for right at $30,K.. It will get better than 200 miles per charge driving at 60MPH avg. Has 2 large chargers and 85khr batteries and with a designated power plug, (240 V ~80Amp) the batteries can fully charge in under 1 hour... More than a half charge in under 30 minutes..

This is now getting to a point that long distance drivers will become interested.. I know my wife has me on the bench every few hundred miles while she empties her tank and buys more to refill it. Somehow we alllllways pick the gas station that has no coffee made, so she makes it.. Yeah, I can almost do it now!! It would damn sure be better than perfect around home.. I don't drive 200 miles per week and I have all kinds of juice in my shop..  At 11 cents per Kilowatt hour I can deal with that well...... 

So imagine where electric cars would be if we had not let big oil steer us away from new technology. Where will we be in another ten years??

I still think they should create stock battery sizes just like A, AA, AAA, D, C and so on. Keep them down to a few acceptable shapes and stock them at charging stations where they can be readily swapped out. Maybe swapped from underneath or from behind, but something in the way of a battery pack with quick disconnects that can be charged fairly quickly and swapped out very quickly...

[Mike DC]

Yeah, I agree.  Physically swapping the batteries seems like the most practical way to refuel electric cars on-the-fly.

[bull]

Yeah, I agree.  Physically swapping the batteries seems like the most practical way to refuel electric cars on-the-fly.

I can just imagine the potential for serious problems with that idea. The regulation alone would seem to be cost prohibitive, assuming there is any real oversight at all. I can see it now; you pull in to a station with your factory-fresh Tesla brand battery pack and get fitted with a cut-rate, Chinese counterfeit replacement and sent on your way. Ten miles down the road your car dies and bursts into flames.

[Old Moparz]

I don't really care about Tesla. To me it's like any other "exotic car company" catering to a clientele that can buy a toy that's worth more than the average person's home. But you do have to give them credit for paying back a loan unlike certain other companies. I love how our trustworthy media manages to keep everyone so well informed.  

Chrysler Paid in Full?

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/chrysler-paid-in-full/

Chrysler to pay back all but $1.3B of bailout

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/2011-06-03-chrysler-bailout-government_n.htm

President Obama's phony accounting on the auto industry bailout

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/president-obamas-phony-accounting-on-the-auto-industry-bailout/2011/06/06/AG3nefKH_blog.html

-------------------------------------------------

As far as being registered in Delaware in order to be classified as an American company, The laws & regulations are more "corporate friendly" there. Smells like Swiss bank account status or the Cayman Islands to me.

https://www.usa-corporate.com/why-incorporate-in-delaware/#

Good Reasons to Incorporate in Delaware

    Best state to incorporate a startup
    Favorable laws for corporate governance
    Clear and consistent legal system
    State tax laws that favor companies not doing business in the state
    For the non-resident company looking to expand into the US market, Delaware is a great base to start from



It may not be illegal, but call a spade a spade.

[Cooter]

I think all these auto manufacturers talking bout how they 'paid back' loans/bailouts is just that....Talk.

[Old Moparz]

I think all these auto manufacturers talking bout how they 'paid back' loans/bailouts is just that....Talk.

That's probably a lot more accurate than anything we can find out about it online or in print. 

[Steve P.]

Hell, I am happy that for once someone used the top 1%ers as lab rats.. They say they will have a 30K car out in a few years. If they do, then I would be even more happy as they will have done what they set out to do...

Why are so many against electric cars here?? I enjoyed my electric slot cars and electric RC cars much better than any of the gas cars and planes.

After all, we use all kinds of everything else electric. I don't know anyone who HAND CRANKS their engines over... Hell, most of our daily drivers now have electric windows in them!!

My "half full" .02

[Mike DC]

I can just imagine the potential for serious problems with that idea. The regulation alone would seem to be cost prohibitive, assuming there is any real oversight at all. I can see it now; you pull in to a station with your factory-fresh Tesla brand battery pack and get fitted with a cut-rate, Chinese counterfeit replacement and sent on your way. Ten miles down the road your car dies and bursts into flames.

Right now we pump zillions of tankers full of fuel into vehicles every year.  That hasn't proven to be any particular oversight nightmare.  The local Shell station doesn't supply gasoline that has been watered down with engine-destructive crap.  (Well, aside from the legally mandated crap.)

It works even though they are supplying a liquid fuel that nobody sees by sight, there are a whole bunch of different brands of it, lord knows how many stations with all sorts of ownership & operator situations, several grades of fuel are normally available, etc.

    -------------------------------------------


Auto Industry loans -

Personally I never paid much attention to it.  The amounts given to the financial industry are so far off the charts . . . trying to understand the situation with Detroit's bailouts hardly seems worth the mental effort in comparison.

[Patronus]

Tesla is the #1 selling auto in the $70K bracket...selling more than BMW and Mercedes...although at $70K its Mercedes entry level.

[Cooter]

Why are so many against electric cars here?? I enjoyed my electric slot cars and electric RC cars much better than any of the gas cars and planes.

Many see the Electric cars as having many of the same type of Stigma attatched to them as say the 'New' VW Beetle, and the Ever popular (Even in the 'Monster V8 Version), Mazda Miata. They tend to be purchased by a certain group of green weenie, Enviro-Nazi's. NOT Uber cool Musclecar folks.

Yes, once fuel hits $25/gal, then you will see the 'Too Cool' folks begin to be forced to buy them, but not right now. There's sjust something 'Americana' about BIG, LOUD, NASTY, Fuel burning, Obnoxious, V8 powered cars. At a stoplight 'conflict', I don't know bout the rest, but I really can't see many musclecar fans talking smack about how many Kilowatts/jiggawatts his/her car has over the next guys, or how many miles he can go before he has to 'Plug-in'....

[Mike DC]

Yes, once fuel hits $25/gal, then you will see the 'Too Cool' folks begin to be forced to buy them, but not right now. There's sjust something 'Americana' about BIG, LOUD, NASTY, Fuel burning, Obnoxious, V8 powered cars. At a stoplight 'conflict', I don't know bout the rest, but I really can't see many musclecar fans talking smack about how many Kilowatts/jiggawatts his/her car has over the next guys, or how many miles he can go before he has to 'Plug-in'....

Electrics have the potential to kick our cars' asses in performance, at least in short bursts if perhaps not NASCAR races.

Yeah the batteries weigh a ton - so the drag racers just won't carry 500 miles worth of them at a time.  It's not like we have room to criticize here.  The gasoline hot-rodding world has been full of cars that never get driven more than 50 miles at once for one practicality reason or another. 

The bottom line is the electrics can dump a ton of power to their relatively lightweight motors from just a few batteries all at once.  That will eventually be enough to give our cars a serious beating.



I don't see gas ever going to $25/gal.  (Inflation may do it eventually but that's different.)  As the world's oil supply is becoming more constrained, the problem is manifesting itself by depressing the economy as a whole rather than with fuel price spikes like 30-40 years ago.  We'll keep our reasonably cheap gas, we just won't be able to afford cars anymore.

[Steve P.]

Well you can be against the (GREEN WEENIES), but they are the people driving what will be your future. Like it or not. Mike hit it dead in the nose. There are a few electric drag cars now and they are kicking the shit out of gas fueled cars already. They are building these cars for road rally as well and by the time they have the time in R&D that there has been for liquid fueled cars the electrics will be far advanced from where liquid is today..

I am of the old school too. Love that chest pounding lope. It just plain tells everyone THIS CAR IS BAD ASS.. But when I see our heavy cars getting their asses kicked by half pint foreign cars with a few turbo's on them and sounding like a shredding bearing from the exhaust it really makes me sick, but also think. So fight back with what?? Sure you can throw a ton more money at it and by the time your heavy car can take that half pint, you have sold the house and can't even drive the car to work as it needs more gas stations between work and home and home is your buddies basement.  So why not lighten up your car and get rid of thousands of moving parts that wear and need replacement?? Need oil changes and frequent the BIG OIL MONEY TAKER on the corner?? Our cars are HUGE MONEY PITS. Many of us need high octane to top it off. Higher dollar gas and usually much more of it..  Battery's are expensive as hell, but need replacement NOW the average is 10 - 14 years.. As more R&D is done on batteries the price will come down.

Tesla has probably got the best engineers available doing a lot of the hard work for us. How can you complain about that?? I can't think of another company that has done such high performance engineering in a newer field or automotive field. Most times it is the manufacturers taking their tips from racers!!

As far as the price of their cars now, well, at $70K I could not be a buyer, but I cannot buy the top of the line mopar, GM or FMC vehicle either. But it's nice that they are doing the high dollar engineering for us to dissect and copy.   

[ws23rt]

Yes, once fuel hits $25/gal, then you will see the 'Too Cool' folks begin to be forced to buy them, but not right now. There's sjust something 'Americana' about BIG, LOUD, NASTY, Fuel burning, Obnoxious, V8 powered cars. At a stoplight 'conflict', I don't know bout the rest, but I really can't see many musclecar fans talking smack about how many Kilowatts/jiggawatts his/her car has over the next guys, or how many miles he can go before he has to 'Plug-in'....

Electrics have the potential to kick our cars' asses in performance, at least in short bursts if perhaps not NASCAR races.

Yeah the batteries weigh a ton - so the drag racers just won't carry 500 miles worth of them at a time.  It's not like we have room to criticize here.  The gasoline hot-rodding world has been full of cars that never get driven more than 50 miles at once for one practicality reason or another.  

The bottom line is the electrics can dump a ton of power to their relatively lightweight motors from just a few batteries all at once.  That will eventually be enough to give our cars a serious beating.



I don't see gas ever going to $25/gal.  (Inflation may do it eventually but that's different.)  As the world's oil supply is becoming more constrained, the problem is manifesting itself by depressing the economy as a whole rather than with fuel price spikes like 30-40 years ago.  We'll keep our reasonably cheap gas, we just won't be able to afford cars anymore.

I enjoy reading these discussions it reminds me of the same topic my friends and I used to have 40yrs ago. We talked about electric power as being ideal for the drags because of of the high torque at hand at zero rpm. All we need is a better battery. We have much better ones now and improvements on the way. I like the description -- torque gets you up to speed and horsepower holds your speed. Locomotives are electric cause transmissions are troublesome in that case. Transmission= torque multiplier.
We still need to fill the battery though. Some refer to electric cars as being coal powered cars because that is our largest single source of electricity (for now.)

[Steve P.]

That is true. Coal is TODAY our biggest electric producing fuel. TODAY!!! Sadly it is a fact. That does not mean it will continue to be this way. There are many other countries leading the way in WIND and SOLAR electric. Sadly again we are NOT in the forefront of it. This country has forgotten how to be a leader. We have dropped to something like 18th of the 26 leading industrial nations. Another sad fact.

And before anyone goes off about me liking electric, don't bother. I still love our old cars and gasoline is still running in my blood, but I will not deny what we could do with electric and if I could afford to do it, I might just put 2 electric motors, (ene to end) in my 65' and show some of you what an electric DODGE can do in a 1/4 mile!!

I would ask everyone this. Given 2 of us had the exact same body and we owed nothing on them, but they needed everything in the way of a drivetrain and suspension with the goal of breaking 10 seconds in the 1/4 mile and be capable of running that same consistent time for lets say 5 years straight. Who would spend more to do so? The gas powered car or the electric car?? All parts must be NEW.....

My bet and everything I have read says the electric car would not only win the rights to say it was cheaper, but also win the race AND be capable of driving all week and to and from the track!!!! 

[ws23rt]

That is true. Coal is TODAY our biggest electric producing fuel. TODAY!!! Sadly it is a fact. That does not mean it will continue to be this way. There are many other countries leading the way in WIND and SOLAR electric. Sadly again we are NOT in the forefront of it. This country has forgotten how to be a leader. We have dropped to something like 18th of the 26 leading industrial nations. Another sad fact.

And before anyone goes off about me liking electric, don't bother. I still love our old cars and gasoline is still running in my blood, but I will not deny what we could do with electric and if I could afford to do it, I might just put 2 electric motors, (ene to end) in my 65' and show some of you what an electric DODGE can do in a 1/4 mile!!

I would ask everyone this. Given 2 of us had the exact same body and we owed nothing on them, but they needed everything in the way of a drivetrain and suspension with the goal of breaking 10 seconds in the 1/4 mile and be capable of running that same consistent time for lets say 5 years straight. Who would spend more to do so? The gas powered car or the electric car?? All parts must be NEW.....

My bet and everything I have read says the electric car would not only win the rights to say it was cheaper, but also win the race AND be capable of driving all week and to and from the track!!!! 

There is nothing that you said here that i disagree with. Better understanding of how things work answers questions. And discussion helps much better that debate. I hope this remains a discussion.  It is better and engaging.

[Cooter]

Electrics have the potential to kick our cars' asses in performance, at least in short bursts if perhaps not NASCAR races.

Yeah the batteries weigh a ton - so the drag racers just won't carry 500 miles worth of them at a time.  It's not like we have room to criticize here.  The gasoline hot-rodding world has been full of cars that never get driven more than 50 miles at once for one practicality reason or another.I call Bullsh*t. We have all the room to criticize here, because for one thing, We don't drive 'em because of fear of being destroyed or Fuel prices. What's to stop Electric cars for being driven 50 miles/week when the electric companies figure out the the Kilowatt hours are gonna go up and up and up in price since the whole damn world is "plugging in" I mean, you are trading one screwing for another. Right now it's big oil. What's to stop the electric bills from being $10/mile??? In comparison?

The bottom line is the electrics can dump a ton of power to their relatively lightweight motors from just a few batteries all at once.  That will eventually be enough to give our cars a serious beating.



I don't see gas ever going to $25/gal.  (Inflation may do it eventually but that's different.)  As the world's oil supply is becoming more constrained, the problem is manifesting itself by depressing the economy as a whole rather than with fuel price spikes like 30-40 years ago.  We'll keep our reasonably cheap gas, we just won't be able to afford cars anymore.Can't afford to buy the electrics now. I mean who the hell is gonna buy a Hybrid for $10K more than a Fuel car that gets 20 MPG less??? I think I mentioned the Chevy Volt. Oh and BTW, When are they gonna make an electric vehicle/truck/SUV that will tow 10K lbs on a single charge for 300 Miles???  There are Diesels/Fuel trucks out the right now that are doing just that.

[Steve P.]

Cooter, as I said in another thread that you so definitely touted, NOT ALL CARS FIT EVERY ONE OF YOUR NEEDS. This is why we have a choice... If you need to tow 10,000 pound you will not buy an electric car. You also will not buy a CIVIC, CHARGER, JAGUAR, PANTARA, Ferrari or 100 other cars. Why does 1 have to fit all in your World. 

My trust in electric performance is well above gas fueled. I have an electric blower that I have been using for many years to blow the leaves and grass off the driveway and sidewalk. 2 times I got tired of dragging a 100 ft. cord around plugging it in at 3 places on the house and 1 more on the back shop, so I bought a gas blower. 2 times.. The first one was in the shop more than working. It finally was out of warranty and I shit canned it. I spent much more on a better brand and within just under a year I was in the same story as the first. I am back to my electric blower that has never missed a beat. Even with as few moving parts as a 2-cycle blower has, neither were able to outlast the electric blower.  I have a walk behind edger that is giving me hell right now.  I am at the point of building an electric edger/blower combo and getting rid of the gas powered crap.

Don't misunderstand. I do not believe we will ever do away with GASOLINE.

At .11 per kilowatt hour which is the national avg. and the driving I do 99% of the time, I would highly benefit from an electric car or in my case small pick up. Everyplace I go 99% of the time is within 40 miles one way. There are hundreds of thousands of us in the same avg. We would all be saving a ton of money and pollution.

And as far as the pollution the power plants are putting out, it is one hell of a lot less making electricity go provide cars to go the same miles as what cars on gas put out.

If you add to that thought the fact that more and more power plants are getting into solar power to take advantage (for all the same reasons), mostly no fuel costs and no moving parts to extremely few. Also as solar panels get cheaper and more info is made easier to find and understand it will become much more common place to see homes with their own solar. Farms will be going back to wind power too...

Bottom line, everything takes research and development. Then people like us start toying with it and pushing things to their limit and building things to take more abuse and NOT fall apart..  So why are you so against progress??

[Cooter]

Cooter, as I said in another thread that you so definitely touted, NOT ALL CARS FIT EVERY ONE OF YOUR NEEDS. This is why we have a choice... If you need to tow 10,000 pound you will not buy an electric car. You also will not buy a CIVIC, CHARGER, JAGUAR, PANTARA, Ferrari or 100 other cars. Why does 1 have to fit all in your World.  Not only "My" world Steve. If you take off those blinders, you'd see I'm just playing devil's advocate here for the rest of the proven buying public. Why if someone offers a real world look at Electrics, it has to fit in YOUR world of "progress"

My trust in electric performance is well above gas fueled. I have an electric blower that I have been using for many years to blow the leaves and grass off the driveway and sidewalk. 2 times I got tired of dragging a 100 ft. cord around plugging it in at 3 places on the house and 1 more on the back shop, so I bought a gas blower. 2 times.. The first one was in the shop more than working.9 times out of ten, if you looked at this one sided, you would be correct. However, many times it is owner fault as to the up keep of fuel buring engines (Especially, the little ones that will screw up in a heartbeat), that causes the need for these type responses. Sure, one can let an electric sit for an entire year and pick it up and it 'should work', but try that with a fuel powere one and your chances have dropped. Let's not even get into the buying public and buying the cheapest POS they can buy when it comes to blowers, weedeaters, etc. that they know full and well will NOT last. This will be an issue with electrics as well, once the 'China' market figures out we are into 'Electrics' now. How many times did I hear my Pop whine and bit*h about "cheap Japanese Junk" when his "sony" Stereo quit playing?

It finally was out of warranty and I shit canned it. I spent much more on a better brand and within just under a year I was in the same story as the first. I am back to my electric blower that has never missed a beat. Even with as few moving parts as a 2-cycle blower has, neither were able to outlast the electric blower.  I have a walk behind edger that is giving me hell right now.  I am at the point of building an electric edger/blower combo and getting rid of the gas powered crap.I have NO problems with ANY of my Fuel powered tools. Of course, I go out and fire my Weedeater up in the dead of winter as well as my Lawnmower. Hmmm, maybe your right Steve, maybe electric Lawntractors will catch on...

Don't misunderstand. I do not believe we will ever do away with GASOLINE.

At .11 per kilowatt hour which is the national avg. and the driving I do 99% of the time, I would highly benefit from an electric car or in my case small pick up. Everyplace I go 99% of the time is within 40 miles one way. There are hundreds of thousands of us in the same avg. We would all be saving a ton of money and pollution. Again, you seem to forget that once the Electric companies figure out the fuel is out and their sh*t is in, they WIL GO UP. then, your right there with Diesels right now. Sure, you get another 6-9 MPG towing, but how much more do you pay at the pump over my Gas engine? You cannot "Beat" big oil. One can try, but one will figure it out soon enough. Whatever you've thought of to get around them, they have been there, and done that.
I'm not above electrics, I'm just being real here. I refuse to believe that the electric companies aren't gonna do what the fuel companies did to us with fuel prices, then report RECORD profits.

And as far as the pollution the power plants are putting out, it is one hell of a lot less making electricity go provide cars to go the same miles as what cars on gas put out. If you believe what you've read. How bout where to recycle the old batteries? How bout the plants that produce all this stuff?? they Get "Tax credits" in order to allow them to pollute under the radar. Remember when the next big thing to get over on Big oil was to make your own "Boi-Diesel"? Worked GREAT until the supply couldn't keep up with the demand and the Restaraunts decided to begin to CHARGE for their old Fry oil. Now, it would seem you are only saving a few pennies over buying Pump diesel. Damn, And Here I was "Discussing" this VERY THING and getting shot down on another forum..Hmmmm pattern?

If you add to that thought the fact that more and more power plants are getting into solar power to take advantage (for all the same reasons), mostly no fuel costs and no moving parts to extremely few. Also as solar panels get cheaper and more info is made easier to find and understand it will become much more common place to see homes with their own solar. Farms will be going back to wind power too...Yet, I see the pricetags on some of that "Solar" sh*t and it's high as hell. For every "pro", there's gonna be a "con". All I'm doing is offering just that, the Cons. Don't shoot the messenger.

Bottom line, everything takes research and development. Then people like us start toying with it and pushing things to their limit and building things to take more abuse and NOT fall apart..  So why are you so against progress??Nowhere in my reply am I against progress. If that were the case, I'd still be looking for Flathead Fords, and Straight 8 Buicks. Why is it if the "cons" side of things is offered for discussion, you are so against it??

[Steve P.]

It is ONLY YOUR WORLD if you are the only one here that cannot see a use for electric vehicles!! Just like the ECOBOOST thread, you think for you only or for those that pull trailers for fun or a living. Electrics may NOT be for you or your thing. That does not mean that many others of us would not save a fortune driving one. There are very many all electric vehicles on the road here now!! There is your REAL WORLD....

On the blower and edger, I use to own a lawn service years ago. I know how to mix 2-cycle fuel and I know how to use it. We had few breakdowns of the business equipment. Not that we never had them!! On the equipment I am talking about I know how to use it and STIHL is not cheap shit. You take a lot for granted and are not batting well. And by the way, I live in Florida and USE my equipment year round... 


You say: "  Again, you seem to forget that once the Electric companies figure out the fuel is out and their sh*t is in, they WIL GO UP. then, your right there with Diesels right now. Sure, you get another 6-9 MPG towing, but how much more do you pay at the pump over my Gas engine? You cannot "Beat" big oil. One can try, but one will figure it out soon enough. Whatever you've thought of to get around them, they have been there, and done that.
I'm not above electrics, I'm just being real here. I refuse to believe that the electric companies aren't gonna do what the fuel companies did to us with fuel prices, then report RECORD profits."

So you believe that we should continue to allow big oil to stick it to us and pollute the hell out of the World rather than move toward electrics that can be fueled by the Sun. Renewable every day and storable? Sure corporate America will try to score on it, but we have been raped by big oil for the last 50 years and what they sell pollutes everything. Diesel is ALSO brought to you by BIG OIL.. Did you expect anything less?

You are not looking at volume of pollution at all. Yes there are pollutants with batteries, but lead acid batteries are on a much better program today than at any time in the past. WHY? Because some of us do care about what we are doing to the World. The batteries used in today's electric cars  are lasting 10 - 14 years. They have less pollutants and are also recyclable. Yes, I do read alot about it.. And why are electric cars getting tax credits?? Maybe to take the edge off the costs and to get rid of more polluting cars.
I don't know of any of these BUILDING companies getting any tax credits. If you know something  I don't please paste a link to it. I would like to know about it. And please, get out of the BIO-DIESEL talk. You are loaded and ready to pull the trigger and miss the biggest part of the BIO-DIESEL MOVEMENT. It is about LESS POLLUTION and LONGER LASTING ENGINES. The only PATTERN here is that you are NOT GETTING IT!!!

Another quote: " Yet, I see the pricetags on some of that "Solar" sh*t and it's high as hell. For every "pro", there's gonna be a "con". All I'm doing is offering just that, the Cons. Don't shoot the messenger. "
Well thank you for learnin me on pros and cons and it is very evident that you want to point out the cons. Only you completely miss or except the PROS. I have already posted them and this is getting redundant.

For someone who claims to NOT be against progress you have not shown anything of interest in it. You very much sound like those guys that said no one would ever be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away in real time. Yet you have no issues with making an engine make more power than it's intended to have. I think you have just made a mental choice and love to tell others your half empty glass is how it is and how it will always be.. If we all believed that we would never move forward.

[Cooter]

It is ONLY YOUR WORLD if you are the only one here that cannot see a use for electric vehicles!! Just like the ECOBOOST thread, you think for you only or for those that pull trailers for fun or a living. Electrics may NOT be for you or your thing. That does not mean that many others of us would not save a fortune driving one. There are very many all electric vehicles on the road here now!! There is your REAL WORLD.... Steve, you really must try and understand the difference between a 'Debate' and an 'Arguement'. in no way am I saying your wrong, but in no way am I saying your right. Afterall, a debate can only happen if BOTH sides are represented.



So you believe that we should continue to allow big oil to stick it to us and pollute the hell out of the World rather than move toward electrics that can be fueled by the Sun. Renewable every day and storable? Sure corporate America will try to score on it, but we have been raped by big oil for the last 50 years and what they sell pollutes everything. Diesel is ALSO brought to you by BIG OIL.. Did you expect anything less?Again, you seem to think that if someone isn't with you, then they MUST be against you. In order for one to actually 'debate' a subject, one must learn to bat 1000. Again, sorry for your confusion on this one Steve. I deal in reallity. Big oil isn't just gonna lay down and allow the baby's candy to be taken away as easily as you would have folks to believe. I'm all for $1.00/gal Fuel once Electrics take over and the demand slows down for fossil fuels, but I also fear where one comes down, the other will go up to insure future 'Record Profits'...

You are not looking at volume of pollution at all. Yes there are pollutants with batteries, but lead acid batteries are on a much better program today than at any time in the past. WHY? Because some of us do care about what we are doing to the World. The batteries used in today's electric cars  are lasting 10 - 14 years. They have less pollutants and are also recyclable. Yes, I do read alot about it.. And why are electric cars getting tax credits?? Maybe to take the edge off the costs and to get rid of more polluting cars. Well, since you seem to think that I Alone, do not care about the Enviroment, wonder why these 'Hybrids' and 'Electrics' Didn;t cost LESS new than their "Gross Poluter" Gas powered rivals? Wonder why the Gov. has to "offset" anything if the Enviroment should be thought about first? I offer "record Profits" for debate on that one. And there are companies out there right now polluting FAR WORSE than any of my "1000 miles a year" 'Gross polluters" I drive. But, Alas, I do not pay into taxes what those companies do so, I'm just a small fish in a big pond on those "Credits" for pollution....


For someone who claims to NOT be against progress you have not shown anything of interest in it. You very much sound like those guys that said no one would ever be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away in real time. Yet you have no issues with making an engine make more power than it's intended to have. I think you have just made a mental choice and love to tell others your half empty glass is how it is and how it will always be.. If we all believed that we would never move forward. It's called a debate Steve, someone has to offer the counter in this. Afterall, if we all agreed on the same things, you guys say it all the time, "It would be one helluva boring place to be". I'm not against Progress, but I refuse to blindly believe that the Eco-boost/Solar/Wind/Electric cars is the next coming of Christ either. Please try and not turn this debate into a "Cooter, your wrong and you do not get it" type thread.  All I offer is the counter. Why is that so unappealing to you here? Is it because you do not like to feel "Challenged" at all? I really am just trying to see your Logic in this Steve. One would think that if you are as open minded as you seem to portray, One would think you would be a little more understanding when it comes to someone offering the counter in your debate here.

I guess, if I'm not in agreement with you Steve, You MUST be right. Sorry for the confusion...

[Steve P.]

That's ok Cooter. I don't want to argue or debate with you. I am really not here to do either.

[Mike DC]