i burnt up my ammeter, now what. 7/4/13--- UPDATE

[K9COP]

/\ +++ what they said. Luke, to be honest, I'm worried about the output of your alternator. it's easy to sit on the outside and criticise, but please know my concerns are for you and your car, not some forum posturing. If I understand correctly, you have all new wiring, which is a good thing, but please, please think safety and 'capacity'. You have more than doubled the amperage of the alternator, in a system that we know already can struggle. I think that the 'MAD' upgrade, and headlight relays will go towards protection. If I was in your situation, I would definitely fit a battery kill switch of some description. I'm going to relocate my battery to the trunk, and have a kill switch next to the drivers' seat inside the car. I just can't bear the thought of loosing my (or yours) car to a preventable fire.

B5 and Pete in NH definitely have a lot of knowledge and are very welcome and very generous additions to the forum, complimenting and adding to Nacho's previous posts.

safety, safety, safety brother.

CS

[Pete in NH]

Luke,

I think we can work out a way to use that big alternator but, we're going to have to think it through and design it in as a total system. As Cayman said that alternator is over twice the current of a stock system so ,some upgrading will be required to make it safe. By the way you will need a connector for that Mopar type electronic voltage regulator. Chrysler used to sell them but I can't seem to find a current part number. I'll have to do some more looking or you might have to do a little junk yard shopping.

[lukedukem]

Luke,

I think we can work out a way to use that big alternator but, we're going to have to think it through and design it in as a total system. As Cayman said that alternator is over twice the current of a stock system so ,some upgrading will be required to make it safe. By the way you will need a connector for that Mopar type electronic voltage regulator. Chrysler used to sell them but I can't seem to find a current part number. I'll have to do some more looking or you might have to do a little junk yard shopping.

yeah, neil is actually drawing me up something similar to what he has. i sent him my info on it along with a wiring diagram for my car

luke

[b5blue]

  PM sent. No worry on the Denso Max output guys, it outputs what is needed to match demand, no more. The key here is "Idle output capacity" as I've tried to explain several times.
  Poor idle output causes the car to siphon amps off the battery and when RPM's increase alt. output, the charging system, along with running the cars needs tries to replace amps lost at idle to the battery. (Seen as a voltage drop at the battery.) This is why you'll see the "ALT" gauge swing to -20 or -40 at a stop light then swing back up as you raise RPM's by pulling away. In that scenario the battery is acting as a voltage/amp "buffer" feeding the system's output what it lacks then replacing it when capable. The problem for the gauge is in monitoring this constant flow back and forth it builds up heat. Bypassing the gauge (As many recommend.) by connecting the two gauge wires just hides the issue from sight, yes this will increase the amount of heat the system can handle but the PROBLEM is still there! You can still fry the wires after enough (Now unseen.) draw accumulated off the battery.
  The battery is meant ONLY for starting the engine, that is why in your FSM it is often referred to as a/the "starting battery". Any fix other than having proper "idle output" run into the "RUN" side of the wiring is NOT how the car was engineered. SO a bigger battery or a "fed to the battery alt." will still "back feed" the entire system and heat up the same wires. (Again I want to make clear...No car was EVER made to charge a dead or badly discharged battery! It is only designed to replace the small amount used for "normal starting of the engine".) The wire from the gauge to the battery is rated for that amount and no more.
  The Denso 120 amp has run just fine in my 70 Charger for years now. I am very careful to NOT run my car with even a slightly over-discharged battery to not stress the original harness and gauge. All you need is a 29.00 battery charger and some common sense.   

[K9COP]

Neal, excellent knowledge/information. Thanks for sharing. I guess that makes more sense now . I've actually elected to replace the whole car's harness, and will be relocating the battery to the boot (trunk) area. This will allow me to put a battery kill switch in the car so that I can even just isolate the battery when the car is parked (short term. I'll take it out when the car goes away for the winter.) or if there is another problem.  


CS

[lukedukem]

I couldn't find an icon that has a lightbulb above his head cause it just all of a sudden hit me. After reading your last post Neil, I got it. I ordered the parts suggested. They will be here on the 27th. I will update progress. But I'm glad I replaced all my harnesses too. All I will be running will be a an electric fuel pump from the fuse panel with relay. Maybe a radio later. Thanks guys

Luke.

[b5blue]

Consider running a feed off a fused "IGN. on" to activate a relay that is fed for "power to" the pump off ALT output. (That is also fused before the relay for the pumps rating.)  Modern cars with electric fuel pumps have a built in impact sensor that will disable the pump in a wreck, I advise pirating one from a junk yard for safety. (Mid 80's Thunderbirds had them in the trunk, they had a small reset button exposed.) (Don't ask how I know... )
  Alt output------fuse-----relay-----impact sensor-----pump
  IGN. on (Fused)-----------^
                                (relay on)

[Pete in NH]

Okay, here's my take on all this. Today's cars need a heavy duty electrical system. They have air conditioning, power windows, seats, electric fuel pumps and electric cooling fans for the engine. Added to the mix are electrically heated glass and mirrors as well as an incredible amount of on board electronics. To save weight a small battery is used. It's little wonder these cars carry 120 amp alternators that produce a usable at lower engine speeds.

In contrast my 71 Charger which carries a fair number of options for its day has A/C, radio, and a rear window defogger that is a small blower motor, not heated glass. I provide the power for the windows and seats while the engine drives the cooling fan. There's a mechanical fuel pump and no on board electronics. It makes do with a 45 amp alternator which doesn't provide much out at idle but, also caries a big group 27 battery that can provide a few spare amps when the alternator can not.

I understand the idea of providing alternator output at lower engine speeds to keep the ammeter dancing down and not needing the battery to make up for electrical loads at low engine speeds and then having to put it back. All engineering design is a trade off and you almost never get everything you might want in a design. Our older cars made a trade off in letting the battery provide the current when the alternator can not. I think it was a reasonable trade off.

The weak points in the design are that the wiring could have been a little heavier and running 45 amps through those bulk head connector pins was a really bad idea from day one, let alone 40 + years later with corrosion on them. I'm sure it was done to provide ease of assembly on the assembly line. Chrysler knew how marginal this system was and for cars with 60 amp alternators the "fleet bypass" wiring modification added heavier wiring and bypassed the bulk head connector entirely. I think that's all we really need today, bypass the bulk head connector, heavier wire, and good clean tight connections on the ammeter. I would also replace the fusible link with a more modern fuse type. Also, a stock type alternator of no more than 60 amps. Then let the ammeter do its dance and nothing will be harmed.

Like I said, everything in the engineering world involves trade offs and there are often multiple solutions to problems. I think each individual car owner is going to have to decide how they want to tackle the electrical issues in their cars and decide what fits best in the way they choose to use their car.


Neil, great idea about adding the impact sensor for the fuel pump wiring. Hope it never gets used but a good safety feature to have just incase.

[lukedukem]

Any one else have issues with their new harnesses. There is some foam in the plug where it goes to the bulk head and its making it a pain to plug them in. Am I suppose to take out the foam?

Luke

[K9COP]

Not sure Luke. I bought  a Rebel Wiring harness. I'll let you When (if lol) it turns up... It has no 'bulk head connector' so I suspect I won't have your 'foam' issues tho....

CS

[lukedukem]

Thanks CS. Someone around here's bound to have a new engine harness they can look at.

Luke

[K9COP]

For sure. If I remember rightly, my 'engine side of the bulkhead' harness had foam in it, presumably to keep the water out. I'm not sure though. See what the other guys come up with, and let me know if you need me to uncover my car to check if you don't get anywhere...

CS

[lukedukem]

For sure. If I remember rightly, my 'engine side of the bulkhead' harness had foam in it, presumably to keep the water out. I'm not sure though. See what the other guys come up with, and let me know if you need me to uncover my car to check if you don't get anywhere...

CS

Your right the 'engine side of the bulkhead' has the foam. It's a biotch to get them on there. But I did. The old harness didn't have foam in the connections. That's why I was checking. If you Have it then its all good. Thanks CS


Luke

[b5blue]

Are you using Caig Labs DeOxIt Gold to protect and make sliding connectors together easy? 

[lukedukem]

Are you using Caig Labs DeOxIt Gold to protect and make sliding connectors together easy? 

no, i'm using something else. got it from summit. i'll have to find it.

luke

[lukedukem]

Ok, so I hooked everything up and got the car started after realizing I forgot to plugin the orange box to dist. Anyway, after it started the ammeter was at +20, now my battery might have been low from the cranking, so would this cause it. Plus I smelt something weird and after turning the car off I touched the ballast resistor with the back of my hand and it was so hot it Burnt my skin. I know that's not right. So if anyone can help me out I think I have some wired wrong.

Luke

[b5blue]

If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running!  (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)

[lukedukem]

If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running!  (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)

So the hot ballast resistor and smell was ok.

Luke

[Pete in NH]

Hi Luke,

Sounds like you're making progress! On the ballast resistor, you can hold onto something that is about 130 to 140 degrees F much more than that and you'll pull your hand away quickly. Those ceramic encased resistors can run much hotter than you can touch. Some time ago I sent you a link for instructions on wiring up the orange box systems, if you folowed that you will be okay. You might want to double check the wiring. You might be smelling some oils from handling the resistor burning off and that should stop once they burn off.

De-Oxit is the best contact cleaner I have even seen, really amazing stuff!

[b5blue]

If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running!  (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)

So the hot ballast resistor and smell was ok.

Luke
  Your gauge will tell ya what's going on. It's normal to see + reading as it tops up the battery, with the battery charged and the car running as you turn stuff on you'll just see a reaction bip on the gauge and it will recenter as the regulator adjusts to the new load. It does not measure output like how much extra your headlights, wipers and blower are asking for, it monitors for operational unbalance. If it were to stay in the negative or positive for long it's telling you "something is wrong".
  Funny how if your OIL gauge read 0 or 3lb or TEMP read 250 you'd shut down quickly but many see the AMP gauge telling them something is wrong and they bypass the gauge or attempt to "fix" without a proper repair. Many hate on that gauge and I would not run without it.

[lukedukem]

Hi Luke,

Sounds like you're making progress! On the ballast resistor, you can hold onto something that is about 130 to 140 degrees F much more than that and you'll pull your hand away quickly. Those ceramic encased resistors can run much hotter than you can touch. Some time ago I sent you a link for instructions on wiring up the orange box systems, if you folowed that you will be okay. You might want to double check the wiring. You might be smelling some oils from handling the resistor burning off and that should stop once they burn off.

De-Oxit is the best contact cleaner I have even seen, really amazing stuff!

Thanks Pete. I'm gonna clean it up and charge the battery and try again. I was confused about the wiring for the black voltage box. But if it started I guess I got it right. That ballast just got really hot. It conserned me.

If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running!  (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)

So the hot ballast resistor and smell was ok.

Luke
  Your gauge will tell ya what's going on. It's normal to see + reading as it tops up the battery, with the battery charged and the car running as you turn stuff on you'll just see a reaction bip on the gauge and it will recenter as the regulator adjusts to the new load. It does not measure output like how much extra your headlights, wipers and blower are asking for, it monitors for operational unbalance. If it were to stay in the negative or positive for long it's telling you "something is wrong".
  Funny how if your OIL gauge read 0 or 3lb or TEMP read 250 you'd shut down quickly but many see the AMP gauge telling them something is wrong and they bypass the gauge or attempt to "fix" without a proper repair. Many hate on that gauge and I would not run without it.

Thanks Neil, I'll charge the battery then. Try again. I had it outta the car for awhile and used it once to jump off my lawn mower. So it needs a good charge before I try again.

So if I start the car the needle should read positive for a couple of minutes then go to center after it recharges battery for the cranking part?

Luke

[b5blue]

I can't stress enough how after all you have been through YES!! ALWAYS start with a battery at 100% no less!!! 

[lukedukem]

I can't stress enough how after all you have been through YES!! ALWAYS start with a battery at 100% no less!!! 

Got it. It's on the charger now

Luke

[lukedukem]

Ok, I put the fully charged battery on and started it. The needle read about middle for about 30 sec. Then it was down the middle, I would rev the motor and still Middle. Turn on parking lights and blip, then dead center.
I think I got it. It seams snappy with this orange box, but that Jacobs box was old and corroded.
I'm still worried about the ballast getting so hot, it still did it. I let the temp gauge come up and then after I shut it down it was still hot. Any one else have this, I know some heat is normal but man I can't touch it with back of my hand. I will do a test drive this week and hopefully I don't burn anything up

Luke

[b5blue]

I would not be surprised if the car ran better overall. (Mine did.) With constant voltage/amps to all ignition parts you get a better spark at all RPM's.